can sum1 tell me about islam?

[Trauma-san]

Ant, that's an interesting argument, but it doesn't convince me that the Qu'ran is invalid... I don't believe the Qu'ran to be valid, but my reasoning is that again, it's a book that has to be accepted through faith; no book, INCLUDING the bible, Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, whatever holy book you want to mention can prove itself, or just by reading give the impression that it is valid, or the work of god.  Faith is always involved (which I don't have a problem with)...

[Don Seer]

All I know is that they worship Alliyah or something.

lmao

[Trauma-san]

lol @ same

[infinite59]

First Ant, then Tree Trunk


Ant

You can't duplicate the Qur'an.  In one Surah Allah even says something similar to, "I have used the number 9, as a sign, so that you can be certain."  Each Arabic letter in every surah totalled up is a factor of 9.  Men and women is said in a proportionate amount.  The Qur'an touches on every aspect, and offers guidance to anything one may encounter in life.  It can not be duplicated.  And remember back in those days there were no computers or anything.  No one can duplicate that knowledge.

Tree Trunk

You asked what happens to man when he dies not believing that Jesus was the son of God.  Well, I used to be Christian and believe in Jesus and all that and I was walking dead.  I was walking around, I guess you could say I was functional, but I was already dead.  And I was in hell.  So that's my answer to you.  You asked, that's my answer.

[Ant]

The challenge wasn't to recreate the Qu'ran is was to recreate a single Sura.

As I have pointed out this is not impossible.  The Bible wasn't written until 100 years after jesus died.  The Psalms in the Bible are similar to Sura.  There are many poets who can accomplish the task of writting a poem with a moral, and having their letters total a factor of nine.  I'm no poet, but its completely ridiculous to say it can't be done.   Can anyone recreate the whole Qu'ran?  Perhaps not. But a single Sura?  That's not too tough like I said, just read the Bible.  That wasn't written by God and is a similar text.  Read the Dante's Divine Comedy.  Dante wrote prose and filled it with morals.  If he read the Qu'ran and wanted to write a similar verse, he could have written Sura XXX.  As could many other poets/authors..

The only task is write in prose, have ur letters be a factor of 9, provide moral guidance.  


Personally, I think that was a foolish commet for whoever wrote the Qu'ran to make.  There is obvious reasons for its inclusions at the time and quite simply displays that whoever wrote the Qu'ran was not Omniscient.  When the the Qu'ran was written, many people couldn't write extremely well.  The author obviously knew his audience, indeed its not a hard lesson to consider your audience when writing.  Anyways if your the author of the Qu'ran and you realize your audience can't write.  Then a comment such at that seems a logical means to convince even the disbelievers of the Qu'rans validity.  However, the author was obviously not omniscient, because he failed to realize that while in his time/ location most people couldn't write well as time progressed people would be able to.  And in other areas of the world people already have been able to.  

There was no necesity for that verse, it is a display of overzealous behavior on the part of the author.  It is included because the author is falliable, not omniscient, and thus not Allah.  

If you believe the Qu'ran is perfect then wouldnt you believe a perfect text would be absent of contradictions?  If the Qu'ran was perfect then why is it used to as a means to inspire mass murder and evil?  An omniscient God would never create a perfect text that could be misconstrued to warrant acts of Evil.   Futhermore if the Qu'ran claims Jesus to be a prophet of God then that is a major contradiction in itself.  For if Jesus is a prophet why have you altered his teachings?  "Love your neighbor" "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"  Those are the teachings of a Prophet the Qu'ran clearly recognizes as being a prophet of God.  Well if he is a prophet why did the Qu'ran (also the word of god) alter and contradict his teachings.  The prophet Jesus never would have accepted a concept such as Jihad, but the Perfect Qu'ran advocates it.  The Qu'ran is perfect and the Word of God.  Jesus is acknowledged to be a Prophet who spoke the word of God.  But the two contradict each other.

The only options left are Jesus is not a prophet in which case the Qu'ran never contradicted the word of God.  But the Qu'ran would then not be perfect since it acknowledges Jesus as a prophet.  It then can't be the word of God since God is Perfect but his book acknowledges a false prophet.  

Then the option that Jesus is a prophet and thus the Qu'ran contradicts the word of God and thus is imperfect.  This leaves only two options.  The Qu'ran was not written by God.  God is not perfect.

You choose.

[infinite59]

Okay......

1.  You suggest that a Surah can be duplicated with the same value as that of the Qur'an.  But there's a very simple answer to that.  We believe it to be the word of Allah.  So unless you can produce a literary work that evokes the same emotion within us when reading it, then you have not created something of equal value.

2.  The so-called Jesus controdiciton.  You say why would we not follow some of his teachings if he is indeed a prophet.  Obviously, the answer to that is that we believe some of his teachings have been altered.

[Ant]

But the test placed within the Qu'ran was not a challenge to the believers it was a challenge to the disbelievers.

You said we have to produce a literary work that produces the same emotion within you when reading it?  Thats not the challenge stated in the Qu'ran.  The challenge was to create a work equal to a single Sura, and gather your own helpers.

Then produce a Sura
Like thereunto;
And call your witnesses of helpers
(If there are any) besides God,
If your doubts are true.

There are quite a few philsophers that have done such a task.  They wrote literary works that have gained wide followings.  For example, there are many existenalist's today because of the work of Albert Camus and others.  There are many objectivists today because of the work of Ayn Rand.  There are many buddhists today because of Siddartha Gotama.

By saying the Bible was not written by God my case is proven.  The christian faith, which you say was not written by God, has MORE followers than Islam.  

Finally I'll argue directly against your misguided arguement that I would have to make "you" feel emotion.  You said, "unless you can produce a literary work that evokes the same emotion within us when reading it, then you have not created something of equal value."   Well by this arguement, which is not the arguement presented in the Qu'ran, any follower of Islam who left their faith proves this point.  If a single Muslim has ever read another man's work that conjured up such emotion that he left his faith then he can rest assured his doubts are true.  Therefore, by your arguement (which again isn't the arguement in the Qu'ran), the only proof needed is a man to have left the islamic faith after being persuaded by another book.    


The so called jesus contradiction is a pretty big one too.  Since "love your brother" and "jihad the infidels" are quite opposite.  Many men and women believe in the teachings of "love your brother", indeed this is most likely where major christian opposition to Jihad comes belief from.  That's a large disagreement.  In fact, if Jesus was misquoted in saying "love your brother" well then whoever misquoted him produced something that inspired emotion in its readers as much as the Qu'ran did.  However, since this write mis quoted Jesus according to the Qu'ran, we can plainly see that a common man wrote scripture equally as great and grand as a Sura.  For the task at hand was to write and gain helpers.  

Again, since the Qu'ran says God didn't mean to say "love your brother" "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" that part of the scripture was not written by God, but misquoted by Man.  Since a man who misquoted scripture inspired emotion equal to and surpassing the Qu'ran then the Qu'ran made a mistaken claim.  In other words, a man (not god) wrote something that inspired a lot of people and gained him a lot of followers.  That was the challenge in the Qu'ran, the challenge was already met before the Qu'ran's creation.  Indeed a large mistake on the part of its author.  Again though, if you consider who the author was writing to its easy to see how such a silly mistake slipped through the cracks.

He was thinking of the present time non writing people who would easily be convinced by this writing.  For example, I am extremely impressed by any author and in awe of their ability since I don't possess the ability to write a 1000 page novel.  But other authors than can easily write great works look at each othe more critically.


In any event, you haven't proved your point.  If anything you have proven mine.

[infinite59]

In the beggining of al Qur'an it says that the Qur'an is a mercy and a book for those people who believe in Allah and the last day.  It is for the believers.  So to explain this ayat you posted...

Then produce a Sura
Like thereunto;
And call your witnesses of helpers
(If there are any) besides God,
If your doubts are true.

^^^ It says produce a Surah like thereunto.  And once again you can not produce a Surah that can exert within us the same emotions as that of Al-Qur'an.  Yes, it is a challenge to unbelievers, to try and prove to the believers that an equal literary work can be produced.  And you can not and have not been able to convince us of that.

[Maestro Minded]

Since Infinite knows so much about the Bible, perhaps he can tell you what happens to people who die and don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God.  

maby i shall remind you of the first commandment...

(Thou shalt have no other gods before me.)

[Ant]

You neglected a good portion of my last post where I said... any muslim that has been converted by the words of another author is evidence the challenge is won by your own INCORRECT interpretation.

I'll further disprove you with your OWN words.  You very frequently cite that we are ALL muslims.  You claim all men are muslims if they believe in God regardless of current religious affliation.  According to you everyone is muslim even the sun and the moon.  Well since christians are muslims, and christians believe in Bible passages that Islam says were altered well then some author other than God has conjured within a Muslim the same emotions as the Qu'ran conjures within other Muslims.  Since by your own words Christians are Muslims.  By your own words we believe in an altered text.  By your own words the task was to write a text that conjures emotions in muslims.

Well there you have it, the Bible (not wholly written by God) has conjured in Muslims emotions equal to that of the Qu'ran.

So as the passage said, I can rest assured my doubts are true.  Or else we are not all Muslims as you frequently said.  Which is it?

[Maestro Minded]

You neglected a good portion of my last post where I said... any muslim that has been converted by the words of another author is evidence the challenge is won by your own INCORRECT interpretation.

I'll further disprove you with your OWN words.  You very frequently cite that we are ALL muslims.  You claim all men are muslims if they believe in God regardless of current religious affliation.  According to you everyone is muslim even the sun and the moon.  Well since christians are muslims, and christians believe in Bible passages that Islam says were altered well then some author other than God has conjured within a Muslim the same emotions as the Qu'ran conjures within other Muslims.  Since by your own words Christians are Muslims.  By your own words we believe in an altered text.  By your own words the task was to write a text that conjures emotions in muslims.

Well there you have it, the Bible (not wholly written by God) has conjured in Muslims emotions equal to that of the Qu'ran.

So as the passage said, I can rest assured my doubts are true.  Or else we are not all Muslims as you frequently said.  Which is it?

a person/item who's in harmony with the nature is following the rules of Islam... thats why Infinite could consider the sun and the moon as 'followers of islam'.... i christian is not a muslim... but some christians follows the rules of islam, but yet they call theirselfs for christians, thoose people are the one Infinite is talking about... they havent gotten the truth and the knowledge of Islam revealed fior them yet and can therfore be considered as muslims in the eyes of Allah... those people, who hadnt a chance to conveert to Islam, but still lived in harmony with the nature will enter the paradise like any other muslim....


conclusion: you can be a christian but still a muslim in the eyes of Allah

if im correct thats what Infinite was talking abut

[Ant]

Well then if your a christian and a muslim in the eyes of God then refer back to what I originally said.