Lets be real about 2pac for a minute

[bouli77]

i may very well be wrong, that's just my impression. what, in your opinion, likens Pac's music to the eastcoast more than the west ?

I'm not going to talk about his musical influence cause Pac has worked with a slew of producers from both coasts, but he did the biggest chunk of his released music with westcoast producers (DJ Daryl, Pee Wee, Raw Fusion, Shock G, Johnny J, QD III, Mike Mosley, etc.).

Pac first 4 albums (Thug Life included) were about half eastcoast / half westcoast. On 2pacalypse you had the Live Squad produced joints and the D.U. clique joints. Pac definitely had a westcoast type of flow and topic matters on tracks like Trapped (penned by Ray Luv)/I Don't Give a Fuck. Strictly 4 My niggaz had eastcoast type joints like Representin' 93 or Streets R Deathrow. Thug Life was the most westcoast albums of the 4 even though it had a "Eastcoast side" and a "westcoast side", his crew was 100% westcoast (southern cali) and it had typical westcoast gangsta songs. Me Against The World was half east half west. You had the very eastcoast "Me Against The World", "Lord Knows", "Old School" and the classic westcoast joints like "Death Around The Corner", "outlaw", "heavy in the game", "can you get away" and "young niggaz"

Then his deathrow days were 90% westcoast with 1) party tracks 2) gangsta tracks 3) mystic tracks where he talks about death, reincarnation, and all that stuff 4) "uplifting tracks"

so overall IMHO Pac's style was hybrid and he was very versatile on the mic, he wasn't 100% westcoast but he was certainly no more eastcoast. Pac's style was both close to Ray Luv's and Stretch's and I think he derived his music from the style of rap that surrounded him, since he hung out with both east and westcoast crew that's why he was so versatile.

1) What does it mean to have a westcoast style and delivery?

2) What does his musical influence have to do with the producers who made his beats? Whether most of his producers were from the west coast or not has nothing to do with his style or delivery.

3) You claim his first 4 albums were half westcoast/west coast without defining what either term means. I don't know what a "west coast type of flow/topic matter" is, nor do I hear that in the song Trapped or I Don't Give a Fuck. For sure he sounds nothing like Snoop or Dre.

4) His crew Thug Life definitely wasn't 100% "west coast". Mopreme for one was from New York, like Pac himself. Regardless what would the origin of his associates have to do with Pac himself? Also I don't hear these "typical west coast gangsta songs"

5) Me Against the World was half west coast? I don't hear it, you'll have to explain further.

6) Since when do talking about death, reincarnation or making uplifting tracks say anything about which coast a rapper's music is like?

In conclusion you've yet to come up with anything that would show his style and delivery were considered "west coast", much less even define what that would mean.

Damn you got me. My bad for not making myself clear and digressing. I'll try to tackle each and everyone of your questions.

1) "westcoast" style & delivery is a very general term and not the best, but i think people get what i mean. however i'll try and say this : a type of rapping which was adopted on the westcoast and done by most rappers from there. a different standard. the west has had many different styles but it differentiated itself through A) different slang B) different norms : eastcoast (to be very broad) was about lyrical prowess, killers on the mic, battling each other, bragging about one's skills, storytelling etc. / westcoast (and south)'s focus wasn't fundamentally, you had lyricists and story tellers but it added a different twist. you had a bigger emphasis on street tales, bragadoccio, profanity. as far as the delivery, Pac's urgency and not-so-technical delivery fitted better within westcoast rap music where the songs can be anarchical (where you have rappers taking over the next one, posse cuts where barely anyone sticks to the subject matter etc.)

2) well you're right but what i mean was that the beats dictate the delivery and the vibe, right ? so when a westcoast producer drops a typically westcoast type of beat it's gonna influence how you're gonna rap, isn't it ?

3) Alright here are brief definitions A) westcoast music : funky beat with guitar/bass lines or chords (I Get Around, I Don't Give A Fuck, Holler If You Hear Me) or dark beats with a grave bass line B) eastcoast music : boom bam rap (lol) with less furnished instrumentals or soulful samples (Representin' 93). Why is I Don't Give a Fuck a westcoast song to me ? The urgency of the delivery as i pointed out earlier, the funky Pee Wee (dangerous crew) beat, the lyrics that denounce the Frisco, Oakland & Marin City PD.

4) You're right about Mopreme, but he wasn't the cement of the crew. Thug Life crew was cemented around Big Syke's Evil Minded Gangstas. Pac was hanging out with Inglewood crips then. So he was more influenced by EMG's style of rap and the lifestyle he pursued by then (the death of Katomental etc.) than by NY's competition for lyrical prowess. That led to this album having a more westcoast slant. Your surrounding always influence your actions. Pac didn't rap the same way on "Dusted and disgusted" than he did on "My Mind Made Up". Typical westcoast song : Bury Me A G, Under Pressure, Shit Don't Stop, From The Cradle To The Grave, Pour Out A Little Liquor.

5) Me Against The World has typical westcoast cuts as well : tell me Heavy N The Game isn't a typical Bay Area gangsta rap song. Young Niggaz with the "She's strange" sample that is a staple in westcoast rap music (San Quinn & messy marv, Nate dogg, etc.),

6) I was merely listing Pac's main subject matters when he was on the row, you're right about that, it doesn't make it westcoast. what makes it westcoast though, IMO, is the surrounding he had. being around Suge, "out on bail fresh outta jail" as he said, definitely provided for him an atmosphere. and i think that your surrounding ultimately defines how you are gonna end up sounding. that's why Kurupt is versatile too, on one hand he grew up in Philly listening to Rakim and on the other hand he relocated to Hawthorne were the gangsta rap scene was budding but he still hung out at the Good Life Cafe. That led him to producing lyrical songs that eastcoast artists would not refute and average westcoast gangsta tales.

[Will_B]

Lol Spice 2, you love the Bay right? Do you hear East Coast rappers rappin anything like typical Bay Area rappers?

You guys nitpick to infinity and beyond.

lol, it's a "forum", einstein - what do u expect?

I'd expect people like Spice to know at least something about East/West lyrical content and delivery.

[Darkwing Duck (The Reincarnation)]

i may very well be wrong, that's just my impression. what, in your opinion, likens Pac's music to the eastcoast more than the west ?

I'm not going to talk about his musical influence cause Pac has worked with a slew of producers from both coasts, but he did the biggest chunk of his released music with westcoast producers (DJ Daryl, Pee Wee, Raw Fusion, Shock G, Johnny J, QD III, Mike Mosley, etc.).

Pac first 4 albums (Thug Life included) were about half eastcoast / half westcoast. On 2pacalypse you had the Live Squad produced joints and the D.U. clique joints. Pac definitely had a westcoast type of flow and topic matters on tracks like Trapped (penned by Ray Luv)/I Don't Give a Fuck. Strictly 4 My niggaz had eastcoast type joints like Representin' 93 or Streets R Deathrow. Thug Life was the most westcoast albums of the 4 even though it had a "Eastcoast side" and a "westcoast side", his crew was 100% westcoast (southern cali) and it had typical westcoast gangsta songs. Me Against The World was half east half west. You had the very eastcoast "Me Against The World", "Lord Knows", "Old School" and the classic westcoast joints like "Death Around The Corner", "outlaw", "heavy in the game", "can you get away" and "young niggaz"

Then his deathrow days were 90% westcoast with 1) party tracks 2) gangsta tracks 3) mystic tracks where he talks about death, reincarnation, and all that stuff 4) "uplifting tracks"

so overall IMHO Pac's style was hybrid and he was very versatile on the mic, he wasn't 100% westcoast but he was certainly no more eastcoast. Pac's style was both close to Ray Luv's and Stretch's and I think he derived his music from the style of rap that surrounded him, since he hung out with both east and westcoast crew that's why he was so versatile.

QDIII isnt westoast. neither him personaly, or his type of music..

[bouli77]

QDIII isnt westoast. neither him personaly, or his type of music..

Yeah he is from Sweden. The label "westcoast music" can be tricky. But I think QDIII's most representative music i.e. the music that made him famous can be considered "westcoast". He indeed was a los angeles based producer that helped define the G-Funk sound in his prime and helped develop the g-funk scene(his label Jungle Records focused on westcoast acts like Mr. X). He produced songs that to this day are considered as the epitome of westcoast music.

=> Ice Cube's You Know How We Do It
=> Ice Cube's Bop Gun
=> Too Short's Just Another Day
=> 2pac's To Live and Die in LA
=> Westside Connection's Westward Ho

[Darkwing Duck (The Reincarnation)]

he produced stuff for pac, and some Lench Mob/Ice Cube affiliated-acts - thats it.
not to mention, dude is a european from Sweden
other than taht, his catalogue is predomantly eastcoast and "eastcoast"-sounding - LL Cool J, Treachrous Three, Queen Latifah, plus a million pop/r&b artists from England, Sweden.
and Tech N9ne
his label was bicoastal, n didnt focus on anythin. Mr X was just an artist, just like Justin Warfielfd (an african artist)

but yeah, i understand what u mean. since his most famous music sounds like "westcoast", n was made for "westcoast" artists (like 2pac, from NY) - that makes him "westcoast"? no, i disagree
point taken tho, a few of the songs he produced for Cube and Pac - shaped the sound of the westcoast in the 90's (like his Gap Band-samples)

[bouli77]

nice post. you're right he's not a 'westcoast producer' but you understood where I was coming from though and the fact that I was mentioning him among the producers with whom he made "westcoast music"

Just to be accurate he did produce for more than Cube & Pac as far as westcoast acts are concerned

Cube & Lench Mob & Westside Connection
Mack 10
Yo-Yo
Pac
Celly Cel
Kam
Too Short
The Mexakinz
Jason Kidd (lol)
R.O.D.G & Mr. X.
Luniz

[Will_B]

he produced stuff for pac, and some Lench Mob/Ice Cube affiliated-acts - thats it.
not to mention, dude is a european from Sweden
other than taht, his catalogue is predomantly eastcoast and "eastcoast"-sounding - LL Cool J, Treachrous Three, Queen Latifah, plus a million pop/r&b artists from England, Sweden.
and Tech N9ne
his label was bicoastal, n didnt focus on anythin. Mr X was just an artist, just like Justin Warfielfd (an african artist)

but yeah, i understand what u mean. since his most famous music sounds like "westcoast", n was made for "westcoast" artists (like 2pac, from NY) - that makes him "westcoast"? no, i disagree
point taken tho, a few of the songs he produced for Cube and Pac - shaped the sound of the westcoast in the 90's (like his Gap Band-samples)

Actually he's half Swedish yes but born in London. He's no more a Swede than American.

Don't forget he produced for Coolio too.

[Darkwing Duck (The Reincarnation)]

yeah, u described him as a "westcoast-producer".  
i just didnt think it was reasonable to categorize him, just because of a few songs for the Lench Mob-umbrella and a guy like 2pac.
eastcoast-based production-squad Bomb Squad produced a whole album for Ice Cube (n their music singlehandedly shaped the whole westcoast-scene in the very early 90's, n prompted DJ Pooh to switch up (before Dre started to flip P-Funk samples) - n that doenst make em westcoast, right?  

------------------
didnt mention Mack 10, YoYo and Kam (cuz they are Cube-affiliated acts)
n he only did 1 remix for Coolio, 1 remix for The Mexakinz tho. no productions

Jason Kidd is not a rapper

QDIII was raised in Stockholm for like 20 yrs - dudes a Swede

[bouli77]

i listed him among the westcoast producer. that was a shortcut that led to a mistake. my bad. but u still get my point though.

[Your favorite posters favorite poster]

Actually Brian I don't watch much porn either, you would be proud of me.  I have a GF and I prefer her touch to masturbation.  And Brain you wanna know who Tom is ?  Tom is someone that has been through the storm and back and instead of blaming everyone else he grew up and accepted responsibility for his life and made positive changes.  Tom is someone that doesn't have it figured out but he knows that but he still puts himself out there trying to figure it out.  And Tom may be a dick at times, unsure of himself at times, unhappy with himself at time, but he knows EXACTLY who he is and who he wants to be and I work my fucking ass off getting there instead of living in the past and blaming everyone else.

And Brian the only reason I tear you down is because your still the same anger filled judgemental person you were when we first started posting here.

And tear Pac down, no I pointed out the consquences of his actions, something Pac groupies are afraid to do.

Of course.  My bad.  You are a great man and I am a total failure as a human being.  

...and even though Pac made it to legendary status in an industry that is one of the most cut-throat businesses out there; he wasn't perfect enough.  And clearly you can see that, while the 2pac groupies can't.

You are an inspiration to us all, Tom.   That's why we love you because you are so inspirational for all you've been through and all you've overcome.  

Where in that post did I say you were a failure as a human being Brian ?  I said you were still the same judgemental hate filled person you were nearly 10 years later.  No where did I say you were a failure as a human being.  Those are your own words Brian, is that your own guilt speaking up ?   But back to the point Brian, no where have I denied Pac reaching legendary status, no where have I denied his material.  I merely pointed out the severe consquences of Pac's actions.  And I'm not getting on Pac for not being perfect because no one is.  And I'll be the first to say neither am I.  I'm very far from perfect but for whatever reason you keep going to one ridiculous extreme to protect your hero.  But one huge difference between my mistakes and Pac's is the fact my mistakes didn't kill a man and destroy a genre of music.  If you don't see what Pac did to rap in the long run, you're in straight denial.  To be honest I find it very disturbing that you and the fellow pac groupies can't even see or begin to think of the consquences of Pac's actions in the last year of his life.  No one in this thread has disputed my points with rebuttals that have anything to do with the original subject at hand

If Pac laid around his mom couch in bitching all day, and postin on internet sites, jerkin off and watching porn and WWE.... then yeah, I guess he could of stayed out of trouble, or at least nobody would of cared whether he did wrong anyway.

Brian, look how defensive you're getting over this, its really sad.  But dispute my main point.  Pac's selfish actions in the last year of his life cost him his own life, another mans life, caused two children to grow up without a father, and set the rap game back god knows how many years.  Brian enough of talking about how you worship him or how you think I live on my moms couch... DISPUTE THE POINT AT HAND

[Will_B]

But dispute my main point.  Pac's selfish actions in the last year of his life cost him his own life, another mans life, caused two children to grow up without a father, and set the rap game back god knows how many years.  Brian enough of talking about how you worship him or how you think I live on my moms couch... DISPUTE THE POINT AT HAND

I don't think anyone would dispute that Pac's lifestyle choices contributed to his death, which in turn naturally affected the people closest to him. Family or otherwise.

Why do you want people to argue against the obvious?

[Your favorite posters favorite poster]

But dispute my main point.  Pac's selfish actions in the last year of his life cost him his own life, another mans life, caused two children to grow up without a father, and set the rap game back god knows how many years.  Brian enough of talking about how you worship him or how you think I live on my moms couch... DISPUTE THE POINT AT HAND

I don't think anyone would dispute that Pac's lifestyle choices contributed to his death, which in turn naturally affected the people closest to him. Family or otherwise.

Why do you want people to argue against the obvious?

You still can't even fully admit he set the rap game back God knows how much and you can't admit that his greedy selfish actions caused the murder of Big and orphaned Bigs kids

[Will_B]

But dispute my main point.  Pac's selfish actions in the last year of his life cost him his own life, another mans life, caused two children to grow up without a father, and set the rap game back god knows how many years.  Brian enough of talking about how you worship him or how you think I live on my moms couch... DISPUTE THE POINT AT HAND

I don't think anyone would dispute that Pac's lifestyle choices contributed to his death, which in turn naturally affected the people closest to him. Family or otherwise.

Why do you want people to argue against the obvious?

You still can't even fully admit he set the rap game back God knows how much and you can't admit that his greedy selfish actions caused the murder of Big and orphaned Bigs kids

No one knows the answer to those questions, not even you.

[Quadruple OG]

For some reason the more I read the more I kept thinking about that scene in bad boys 2 when the pool exploded and will smith yelled "now that's funny! That's some funny shit".

That's what I think with about 65% of the new posters on here. Forums really gone downhill as of late. No offense to the new peeps that use common sense or drop knowledge, but the jackasses have run roughshod over the board.

[Your favorite posters favorite poster]

For some reason the more I read the more I kept thinking about that scene in bad boys 2 when the pool exploded and will smith yelled "now that's funny! That's some funny shit".

That's what I think with about 65% of the new posters on here. Forums really gone downhill as of late. No offense to the new peeps that use common sense or drop knowledge, but the jackasses have run roughshod over the board.

I've been here since the board opened in 2001