Jay-Z & Kanye West-Watch The Throne (Album Discussion)

[Detox Is A Myth!!!]

I like New Day thru Who Gon Stop Me, which is four tracks, which is a third of the album... so I have to judge it like a movie that has a good second act within a three-act structure, if I can create an equivalency like that.  So I'll go with a "B-", or a "B" if I'm kind.  The first third of the album makes my ears bleed, while the last third is alright but not quite "good."  Just imo.  But truth be told, this is not at all the style of rapping that I'm into, which is the more laid-back, almost dance-like vibe with hardcore lyrical content, which is what a lot of the 90s was all about.  For example, I was listening to Whut Thee Album earlier today, just to pick a random example, but then to listen to Watch the Throne later in the day, there's no comparison in terms of the quality of albums they used to make back then and what they make now.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

Oh shit, Jay-Z and Damian Marley just announced an album together coming out in early 2012!

No joke, that is all it would take for Infinite to start checking out Jay's discography and makes threads about how he has multiple albums in the top 10.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

My god you do chat some shit Infinite. It sounds like you are basing your opinion of Jay-Z on one song which isn't even anywhere near the best song on Reasonable Doubt. I bet you haven't even check the album out.

bro.. I have that album just for nostalgic purposes I listen to it to remember 1996.  And I still say it's wack.   Also, Def Jam did a hell of a job of promoting his second and third albums and that was back when I was in the 15 and 16 year old phase of buying whatever was the big album of the moment.  So I ended up getting ripped off on both those albums.

Point being, I have all 3 of Jay-Z's first albums, and have listened to them the whole way through.  And they are all weak, over-rated albums.

Already I'm catching you in multiple lies. You just said you used to listen to it "Can't Knock the Hustle" on a tape, now you own the album? And you just said it was the only Jay-Z song you would listen to, now you listen to the whole album for nostalgic purposes? Stop lying. You have never once listened to Reasonable Doubt or any other of his albums. Jay-Z has 17 years of dope material, so for you to base your entire opinion of him off of one song is pretty fucking stupid.

And lmao at this tool for skipping over Can't Knock the Hustle to listen to My Pony.

[The Watcher]

+100000 to Javier and Cham keeping it real

from infinite's own role model:

reggie, JAY-Z, tupac & biggie, andre from outkast.. jada, kurupt ..

even ya own role model thinks jay is the 2nd greatest rapper to ever do it

[Invincible]

On Rapreviews it only got a 7/10. And the music was the weakest part of the album.  

It's here. "Watch the Throne" has caught your attention: the anticipation, fuelled by no advance copies or leaks… It's a welcome throwback to the "old school" days of album releases. It's also a rare coming together of two of the biggest rappers (and artists) on the planet on the same team. We are told that this is an "historic" occasion for our beloved genre, but be warned, dear Reader: history is written by the victors, and just because Jay-Z and Kanye West have finally made "Watch the Throne," it is still only the quality level that will dictate whether it makes it into the books as a truly memorable moment in hip hop. So, once you press play, how does it fare?

Your first impressions won't be all too favourable – BUT persist, as the album improves at a swift pace on each subsequent listen. It clocks in at a relatively lean 46 minutes, with only 12 tracks, but it is a densely packed work that takes time to reveal itself. Perhaps not so much musically (although WTT does contain many a twist) but more so lyrically, as there are "frequent blink and you'll miss it" lines and clever interplays between Jay and 'Ye. There are no guest verses from other rappers, just choruses from singers, and relative newcomer Frank Ocean manages to bag two spots on the album. He blesses the superbly understated opener "No Church in the Wild" with an almost Mos Def-like treatment (matching the moody beat effectively), and both rappers come in hard with visually-depictive verses that put the listener right firmly with them (plus at times, it's almost like a clever piece of wordplay by Ocean, as he seemingly sings "No church in a while" which feeds into the agnostic decadence).

If the first track acts as an executive summary, it hints at diverse subject matter that darts all over the place – this proves to be the case, as we jump into the prerequisite track featuring Beyonce. It's also, early on, the first disappointment of WTT, as "Lift Off" doesn't manage to get into orbit. It has an overly obvious "THIS IS EPIC" stamped on its ass, and the production sabotages B's attempts at a soaring chorus. Kanye comes in singing badly (with/without Auto Tune), and Jay spits a pointless 8 bar verse. But then, with just over a minute left, it breaks down and turns into an infinitely superior instrumental, with a gorgeous mellow roll to it. Beyonce sounds better, and it's just perplexing as to why the dominant beat even made it when the following 48 seconds fits so much better. The cringingly titled "Niggas in Paris" is, in every way, a Big Sean song from "Finally Famous" that got lost along the way. However, once you get past the ringtone melody and OTT bragging, it functions relatively well as "loud, obnoxious rap music" (and the breakdown work well, with the distorted bass contrasting well with the operatic backing vocals). The first single, and undoubted star of the album, follows – "Otis." It's an infinitely repeatable display of brashness, soul and it positively reeks of excess. The chopped up beat is vintage Kanye, and fuck knows how much it cost them to clear the sample (but it certainly explains the insane ticket pricing for their upcoming tour). In the words of Audio Two, what more can I say?

The sampling continues (one of many James Brown grunts peppering the album) although this time, it is handled by The Neptunes on the brilliant "Gotta Have It" – it is sure to weave into your brain, even if Jay makes an unwise "planking on a million" reference. Another standout brings Nina back on "New Day" – yes, it is incredibly similar to Pac's "Letter 2 My Unborn" but it's just done so well here: the reflective beat, the Simone chorus and both verses are top notch. From the tender West/Carter to the ones that go harder: "That's My Bitch" is, however, another moment of mediocrity. It samples "Apache" (like that's never been done before), and it's a throwback track that sounds digitally mastered (when analogue would have sounded better), and the chorus just doesn't function as it should, although Jay's verse is entertaining. It does carry the album forward onto the genial "Welcome to the Jungle" – remember when Swizz Beatz was an incredibly exciting teenage genius? Well, he's baaaaack! He laces an unstoppable and insistent beat for Jigga (a.k.a. "the black Axl Rose") to spit some vicious lyrics, and spellbinding couplets.

It's difficult to say if there is going to be a backlash against the next track, "Who Gon Stop Me," where Kanye spits "this is something like the Holocaust" but musically, it's another diverting moment on "Watch the Throne." Heavily influenced by the UK scene, with lashings of dubstep, and it's reminiscent of tracks like RKZ's "Gonna Be That" (watch the dope alternative edit of that song HERE). The tenth song is one that seems to have been trending on Twitter all day – "Murder to Excellence." Again, the beat splits into two, with the first being rather similar to "Power" (unsurprisingly, the producer S1 handled both tracks). The first half has Kanye spitting about harsh realities ("Murder"), and Jay ends up taking the track to a more celebratory feel ("Excellence") combined with a clarion call for more people to join him. The penultimate track is truly awful "Made in America" with a horribly cloying chorus from Frank Ocean: it's as if the school bully dunked "Forever Young" into the toilets and pulled the flush. Thanks also to the flaccid beat, potentially engaging lyrics are undermined. The album closer is the barnstorming "Why I Love You" where beat, concept, lyrics and chorus all work together to produce a fun slant on the typical "hater" track. And that's that, unless you include the Deluxe Version's 4 cuts – most are probably divisive, but "The Joy" can certainly be subbed in for some of the weaker main efforts.

Once you've listened to "Watch the Throne" a few times, it starts to truly sink in. As it does, you start to see the wood for the trees, and there are various issues afflicting it. The sequencing doesn't help, as things just don't flow together all that well. But whilst there are definite standout tracks, there are also letdowns. It's all pretty specific: "Lift Off" and "Niggas In Paris" are decent, but in the 2 and 3 positions should have been stronger (the former could have been if they had just used the alternative beat). Perhaps "That's My Bitch" is more subjective, but "Made In America" is an undoubted clunker that, I'm sure, most hip hop fans will delete from their playlist quick sharp. The couple of dubstep tracks may well alienate more straightforward rap fans, too. So it seems that half of the album is impressive, a quarter just isn't good enough, and the rest is truly debatable. Does that match the incredible amount of hype it has commanded? Or, at the very least, give it a pass due to being "historic" and so on? Well, although it improved, the first couple of listens just kept making me think about the recent Bad Meets Evil EP from Eminem and Royce. There are subtle differences. You see, Eminem and Royce da 5'9" sounded like old FRIENDS rapping for fun in completely harmony; Jay-Z and Kanye West sound like a couple of guys that have been COLLEAGUES for a decade. Back in January, I wrote something in preparation for "Watch the Throne" and luckily, the end result has come out better than hoped – but maybe that's because my expectations had been relatively low. It never sounds forced, but it does seem restrained at times. Moreover, there isn't a real feeling of playing for the same side, of overwhelming team spirit (compare that with Damian Marley and Nas on their completely harmonious "Distant Relatives" last year).

Whilst at times, you feel a part of the party, more often than not, you're excluded from Jay and Kanye's VIP area. They rap about such opulent things, with Carter declaring that he's forgotten what a miniscule $50,000 feels like. Talk of models, sex with models, Beyonce's breasts, expensive watches, cars, not to mention sampling Otis Redding (which probably cost the size of the GDP of a small country)… It all just gets a bit much and could have really affected the album, if it weren't for the sense of humour the two rappers frequently display. It's also good to see the two unafraid to go in over more experimental beats, plus they both deliver solid lyrics throughout (even if they rarely get exhilarating). The best moments (aside from "Otis" which couldn't fail) are when Jay and 'Ye are spitting about genuinely personal things, being a bit goofy, or about societal subject matter around them ("No Church…" and "…Jungle"), not just money and power. It's certainly an enjoyable listen, with a few great songs – and at least it actually happened – but with the combined power, money and talent that Carter and West continually brag about, you can't help but feel that "Watch the Throne" could and should have been better.

Music Vibes: 6.5 of 10 Lyric Vibes: 7.5 of 10 TOTAL Vibes: 7 of 10

http://www.rapreviews.com/feature.html

[The_Ripper]

LMAO 8.5 from those nerds of Pitchfork.com      

Watch the Throne features the following things: absurdly expensive samples, a pair of choruses from Odd Future R&B singer Frank Ocean at the exact moment where he's turning the corner and becoming a Thing, another chorus from long-been-a-Thing Beyoncé, a buddy-buddy shoutout to the President of the United States, multiple namechecks of brands so expensive that you've probably never heard of half of them, a murderers' row of producers working on almost every track, and a fleeting moment where Bon Iver's Justin Vernon sounds like the funkiest man alive. And yet for Jay-Z and Kanye West, this could actually be viewed as a relatively minor album. Amazing.

The album comes hot on the heels of career-landmark albums from both artists, but the few months they spent recording it on multiple continents were practically vacations compared to the way they usually work. Kanye's opus My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, still less than a year old, won across-the-board critical raves for its lush, prog-rap expansiveness; to create it, Kanye sequestered himself in Hawaii and flew in an endless stream of creative-peak collaborators. Jay, meanwhile, is still cruising on the momentum of The Blueprint 3, an artistically flat but commercially massive grab for continued relevance that did everything he wanted it to do. Watch the Throne brings little of Twisted Fantasy's boundary-melting ambition or The Blueprint 3's commercial acumen. It's just two of rap's biggest figures and best friends getting together to make some of the swollen, epic music that comes so naturally to them. Listening to it is sort of like watching George Clooney get all his movie-star friends together for a party at his Italian villa, and, along the way, maybe dream up Ocean's Twelve. (I liked Ocean's Twelve.)

In the past week, Internet sleuths have pointed out that the release of many Jay-Z albums have coincided with some national or international calamity, 9/11 not excluded. Watch the Throne is no exception: its release on the same day as yet another catastrophic stock market downturn has led some critics to conclude that the pair's boasts of obscene wealth is out of step with the times. That's a fair case to make. But one of the striking things about Watch the Throne is how often Jay and Kanye address matters beyond their bank accounts. On "Why I Love You", it's Jay's dismay at past crewmates' betrayals. On "Murder to Excellence", it's black-on-black crime and the scarcity of people of color at society's highest seats. On "Made in America", it's the hardships of youth and coming of age. "New Day" is framed as a letter to the pair's imagined sons, a device that mostly gives them a chance to soul-search and self-criticize. On "Welcome to the Jungle", Jay, never a tortured pop star, actually says, "I'm fuckin' depressed." Despite all the triumphant bravado these two bring to practically everything they do, they work overtime here to bring a sense of empathy to this enterprise. Once in a while, they even sound vaguely humble.

These subtler moments are admirable, but they don't always work. Consider, for example, the song "That's My Bitch", on which Kanye and his collaborators flip the classic "Apache" break into a devastating dance-rap monster with synths zooming off in every direction and Justin Vernon making the aforementioned sweaty soul moves. It's a vicious song, catchy as fuck, but it turns out to be weirdly awkward. Despite the title, Jay's verse is all devotional-prophet; it mostly concerns the way American beauty standards so often work against women of color. The sentiment deserves respect, but his laidback delivery, on a track with production and structure that call for ferocity, drains his ideas of force.

Watch the Throne works best when Jay and Kanye are just talking about how great they are. The single "Otis" is dizzy fun, with Jay and Kanye rapping hard and swapping mics like hungry kids. "Niggas in Paris" rides an impossibly propulsive synth riff and gigantic drums and gives Jay a chance to display the technical rap wizardry he still has in him. (It also features this great Kanye moment, "Doctors say I'm the illest because I'm suffering from realness/ Got my niggas in Paris, and they going gorillas," followed by a sample of Will Ferrell in Blades of Glory talking about how awesome shit doesn't have to mean anything.) "Gotta Have It" unites Kanye and the Neptunes to crazily chop up James Brown vocal samples and Eastern flute melodies. And "Who Gon Stop Me" finds Kanye cussing in Pig Latin while turning dubstep-rap into a viable subgenre.

If you buy Watch the Throne from iTunes-- the only place you can buy it at the moment-- you'll notice that it's credited to "JAY Z & Kanye West" (capital letters and missing hyphen unexplained). But while Jay might be billed first for seniority's sake, Kanye is this album's obvious guiding force. Throughout, he displays levels of unequaled audacity. On "Otis" and "Gotta Have It", he reduces Otis Redding and James Brown to simple grunts, then builds rhythm tracks out of them. On "New Day", over a beat co-produced by RZA, he actually runs Nina Simone through Auto-Tune. On "No Church in the Wild", he authoritatively vows, "You will not control the threesome." The musical scope of Watch the Throne is a tribute to his distinctive taste and sense of style. The whole thing sounds huge, and even the sillier moments ("Made in America", especially, reminds me of the inspirational ballads of late-period Michael Jackson) succeed on pure orchestral excess. Jay and Kanye debuted the album in a private listening session at a New York planetarium, a setting which made perfect sense: even if it never approaches the grandeur or character-study complexity of Twisted Fantasy, this is still exploding-star music.

So: two long-reigning titans make a relatively quick album which, despite their best efforts, still winds up being a monument to their own grandiosity. Should we care? Well, yeah. Kanye doesn't have a cruise-control switch, and when he's around, neither does Jay. On Watch the Throne, they push each other and have fun doing it, and the result is a stadium-sized event-rap spectacle that still sounds like two insanely talented guys' idiosyncratic vision. That's worth celebrating.

— Tom Breihan, August 11, 2011

[Javier]

What's so funny?

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

that guy sounds like a groupie. I hate when a review spends more of its time praising and backtracking on the career of the artist instead of talking about the goddamn album.

[SCREWFACE]

that guy sounds like a groupie. I hate when a review spends more of its time praising and backtracking on the career of the artist instead of talking about the goddamn album.

welcome to pitchfork

[Elkoizm]

that shit cray

[midwestryder]

I can slightly relate, while Jay is in my top5 along with Em and Snoop, Jay has always been force fed in to mainstream and radio, his forst two albums were straight duds and didnt go gold or platinum back then, they were appreciated way more when he dropped Vol.2 & 3 when people saw more of him, that was his frist album that sold and crossed over...but even before all that Jay had dropped "Reasonable.." after that mafioso rap phase had played out with the Firm, and critized for, and the same critics prasied him (mostly Dream Hampton who is from Brooklyn wrote for The Source and heralded "Ready To Die" better than Dre's "Chronic" album)  Jay and Big had big connections in the business mainly with critics the reason they always were getting high rating in the mag and ads when they didnt have record sales...Jay is dope but to say he is more real than Pac thats a stretch to me, he MAY have sold dope but shit to act like crack was popular in the mid 90's is on some bull shit, METH out sells any thing and every thing from the early 90's on and is still out selling shit on the streets and these fools keep rapping about crack like its fucking 88, its lame some times but to me its entertainment like "Scarface" or some shit...Pac wrote some shit that was true to his heart that and went places no one else did and seems no one else can really go, with out reaching outside their element...Jay is a dope fucking mainstream artist period, and is insightful in his own right but he has had major help along the way (The Source, Vibe, Def Jam have always put up big money from him, because of industry favors he did writing for Foxy Brown, puff etc)

see this is were we can tell if you white or black or hood or notor if you sold drugs or not  ! well you white & not hood & it shows you never sold drugs. i was 18 years old in 1996 & i can tell you crack was just as popular as it was in 80's . meth was popular but it was white mans drug & black people did not fuck with it till 2000. so you are ignorant lame here , who has no idea what he is talking about . also i from the meth capital missouri & balck were fucking with crack till 2000. so crack was popular still with hood & black people in mid 90's to late 90's. SO  you can take the ignorant METH out sells any thing and every thing from the early 90's on and is still out selling shit on the streets and these fools keep rapping about crack like its fucking 88 bullcrap down the road because it is all bullshit & not fact .  i sold both & i can tell you meth was white mans drug till 2000.

[Elkoizm]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BoEKWtgJQAU" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BoEKWtgJQAU</a>

[soopa-man]

I can slightly relate, while Jay is in my top5 along with Em and Snoop, Jay has always been force fed in to mainstream and radio, his forst two albums were straight duds and didnt go gold or platinum back then, they were appreciated way more when he dropped Vol.2 & 3 when people saw more of him, that was his frist album that sold and crossed over...but even before all that Jay had dropped "Reasonable.." after that mafioso rap phase had played out with the Firm, and critized for, and the same critics prasied him (mostly Dream Hampton who is from Brooklyn wrote for The Source and heralded "Ready To Die" better than Dre's "Chronic" album)  Jay and Big had big connections in the business mainly with critics the reason they always were getting high rating in the mag and ads when they didnt have record sales...Jay is dope but to say he is more real than Pac thats a stretch to me, he MAY have sold dope but shit to act like crack was popular in the mid 90's is on some bull shit, METH out sells any thing and every thing from the early 90's on and is still out selling shit on the streets and these fools keep rapping about crack like its fucking 88, its lame some times but to me its entertainment like "Scarface" or some shit...Pac wrote some shit that was true to his heart that and went places no one else did and seems no one else can really go, with out reaching outside their element...Jay is a dope fucking mainstream artist period, and is insightful in his own right but he has had major help along the way (The Source, Vibe, Def Jam have always put up big money from him, because of industry favors he did writing for Foxy Brown, puff etc)

see this is were we can tell if you white or black or hood or notor if you sold drugs or not  ! well you white & not hood & it shows you never sold drugs. i was 18 years old in 1996 & i can tell you crack was just as popular as it was in 80's . meth was popular but it was white mans drug & black people did not fuck with it till 2000. so you are ignorant lame here , who has no idea what he is talking about . also i from the meth capital missouri & balck were fucking with crack till 2000. so crack was popular still with hood & black people in mid 90's to late 90's. SO  you can take the ignorant METH out sells any thing and every thing from the early 90's on and is still out selling shit on the streets and these fools keep rapping about crack like its fucking 88 bullcrap down the road because it is all bullshit & not fact .  i sold both & i can tell you meth was white mans drug till 2000.

aint going to sit and here and argue about dope on any forum, but to say meth is a white man drug is some funny shit, what border you live by? a huge percentage of it comes from the one I live near by and a majority of all the drugsare shipped from here GLASS and Crystal aint no white thing that shit is someking the lives away of blacks and mexicans out here and has been for more than a decade, you can have that arguement with that balck/white shit, caliing people ignorant and lame, half that shit starts its way from mexCALi borders...you all just catch up later when its stepped on.. but you can have that rapping about crack like it can make you rich in raps is entertaining not real by any means because no one was has gotten rich off that alone in cali since the 80's and early 90's out here...still people are smoked out, but to seriously act like a nation of people are smoking crack like that, okay around your way but not out here homie, not by blacks or us mexicans...

[jeanmiche777]

Not a bad album, but it sounds a little bit rushed or at least that's how i feel right now.

[The_Ripper]

I prefer this album