Author Topic: Kobe retired?  (Read 1283 times)

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2015, 12:08:53 PM »
I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.

You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.

THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2015, 12:48:03 PM »
I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.

You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.

THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?


I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West.  Rings are the last factor.

I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them.  Never because he outplayed him.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2015, 07:33:24 PM »
I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.

You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.

THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?


I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West.  Rings are the last factor.

I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them.  Never because he outplayed him.


yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2015, 07:52:12 PM »
I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.

You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.

THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?


I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West.  Rings are the last factor.

I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them.  Never because he outplayed him.


yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.


If we're talking legacy vs legacy you're right, but talent vs talent you're wrong. Not about West. I'll gladly agree that Kobe was better, but because he was better, not because he has 5 rings to 1. That's why he'll be seen as greater. For example I don't think Bill Russell could have covered Shaq. I don't think Russell was big or strong enough to play against a big man that big and plays his game that well. So I might argue that Shaq was better than Russell, but I 'll never say greater.

Same for Iverson. There's a lot of greater point guards Iverson was better than.

We agree on West vs Kobe. I just think using rings to justify it is cheap. They never played against each other or against the same teams, or with the same players. If Kobe had been drafted by the Raptors his greatness would be a fraction of what ity is now, but his skills would have been the same.

My initial point about Russel as it pertains to West is that if Russell simply not existed West would have been much greater than he is, but not any better.

In closing, can you at least concede that you've never conceded anything ever in an argument?
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2015, 08:16:01 PM »
I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.

You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.

THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?


I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West.  Rings are the last factor.

I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them.  Never because he outplayed him.


yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.


If we're talking legacy vs legacy you're right, but talent vs talent you're wrong. Not about West. I'll gladly agree that Kobe was better, but because he was better, not because he has 5 rings to 1. That's why he'll be seen as greater. For example I don't think Bill Russell could have covered Shaq. I don't think Russell was big or strong enough to play against a big man that big and plays his game that well. So I might argue that Shaq was better than Russell, but I 'll never say greater.

Same for Iverson. There's a lot of greater point guards Iverson was better than.

We agree on West vs Kobe. I just think using rings to justify it is cheap. They never played against each other or against the same teams, or with the same players. If Kobe had been drafted by the Raptors his greatness would be a fraction of what ity is now, but his skills would have been the same.

My initial point about Russel as it pertains to West is that if Russell simply not existed West would have been much greater than he is, but not any better.

In closing, can you at least concede that you've never conceded anything ever in an argument?


i think a little differently....i think if you're great, you're great, no matter what. if you're the best at what you do, you'll eventually find a way to get it done and get the best out of what u have. imo, if kobe was drafted by the raptors, he'd be just as great as he is now...probably with some even better individual accolades and some 40 ppg seasons under his belt, considering he'd be handed a franchise from day 1 ala michael jordan and the bulls.....tbh, it'd probably be even better for his individual legacy. the top-tier greats find a way to do it, no matter what...as for me not conceding anything, this is simply how i felt, even before we had this convo...so i dont know why u'd expect me to change my stance and concede anything? as i dont expect you will either.

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2015, 08:51:18 PM »
But he wouldn't have 5 rings, and we both agree that it would make his legacy less than what it is now. And yes, if you're great you'll find a way to show that greatness. MJ was a greater player than a lot of guys before he won his first 3peat. You could see it, but it's the winning that makes his legacy as the greatest ever. Whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, when the book of Basketball is written it's MJ the greatest ever and there is no one playing right nw that going to top that. It may happen one day.

Just like baseball has Babe Ruth. You can argue this that or the third about how he got those numbers or how he would have looked today but legacy is legacy and history is history. No matter who you think is better.

Let's take Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning. I think talent vs talent prime vs prime Peyton isn't just better, he's significantly next level better, but I'm not so stupid as to wonder who ends up with the greater legacy. The best Peyton can do is return from injury and win this year just to get back in the legacy argument. I can debate why Peyton is better than Brady in great detail and no one that has sat and went over the footage with me has ever left disagreeing with me. But Tom Brady will be remembered as the greater QB because he has more rings and his team won more playoff games. I won't argue that.

For the most part I think sports are fixed, or at least skewed by the leagues in order to sell the product in a way they want to sell it. Greatness can be manufactured; ask Tim Donaghy. But skill cannot be. I like watch top level sports to see top level skill exibited. Much in the same way I used to watch pro wrestling. Athletic artists at work. But I get as much upset or happy about a team winning a championship as I do a wrestler winning a belt.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2015, 12:06:01 AM »
But he wouldn't have 5 rings, and we both agree that it would make his legacy less than what it is now. And yes, if you're great you'll find a way to show that greatness. MJ was a greater player than a lot of guys before he won his first 3peat. You could see it, but it's the winning that makes his legacy as the greatest ever. Whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, when the book of Basketball is written it's MJ the greatest ever and there is no one playing right nw that going to top that. It may happen one day.

Just like baseball has Babe Ruth. You can argue this that or the third about how he got those numbers or how he would have looked today but legacy is legacy and history is history. No matter who you think is better.

Let's take Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning. I think talent vs talent prime vs prime Peyton isn't just better, he's significantly next level better, but I'm not so stupid as to wonder who ends up with the greater legacy. The best Peyton can do is return from injury and win this year just to get back in the legacy argument. I can debate why Peyton is better than Brady in great detail and no one that has sat and went over the footage with me has ever left disagreeing with me. But Tom Brady will be remembered as the greater QB because he has more rings and his team won more playoff games. I won't argue that.

For the most part I think sports are fixed, or at least skewed by the leagues in order to sell the product in a way they want to sell it. Greatness can be manufactured; ask Tim Donaghy. But skill cannot be. I like watch top level sports to see top level skill exibited. Much in the same way I used to watch pro wrestling. Athletic artists at work. But I get as much upset or happy about a team winning a championship as I do a wrestler winning a belt.


But that's the thing .. You don't know if drafted to the Raptors, Kobe ends up with 7+  .. Jordan won 6 drafted to a terrible Bulls with a retirement in between threepeats. Greatness attracts greatness. Especially when you combine greatness with impeccable drive.. We can debate all day whether sports is fixed or not. But one thing I do know- Kobe, Magic, MJ, Kareem, Bird were all the greatest at what they did .. Now, Jerry west, he was incredible, but not on that top tier. And that's considering everything that factors into being the greatest of the great, from skill, to drive, to accomplishment.

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2015, 07:20:51 AM »
I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2015, 08:53:32 AM »
I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.


they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2015, 12:30:44 PM »
I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.


they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.

Had he been so great on the Raptors and shown superstar marketability the NBA would have forced a trade. Like the NHL did with Wayne Gretzky.

Anyway. Slim chance I'm in LA one or two days around Christmas. I'll let you know. Maybe we can link up. If you want.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2015, 01:44:28 PM »
I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.


they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.

Had he been so great on the Raptors and shown superstar marketability the NBA would have forced a trade. Like the NHL did with Wayne Gretzky.

Anyway. Slim chance I'm in LA one or two days around Christmas. I'll let you know. Maybe we can link up. If you want.


that i wouldn't doubt....


lemme know fam 8)

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2015, 02:24:47 PM »
Still touch and go. I have some free time between Dec 23 and 28 and don't want to be in the cold. Doubtful but who knows. I'll probably just go to the airport on the 23rd and see who's flying where for cheap. I'm kind of spur of the moment like that.

I'll probably just end up in Montreal. It's beautiful around Christmas time.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2015, 03:31:06 PM »
Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day

Shallow

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Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2015, 05:38:01 PM »
Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day

Nothing special up here. But if you wanna come to Greece let me know. I go back and forth a lot. Athens is a nice city when you know the local scenes.

But you're more than welcome in Toronto.
 

Sccit

Re: Kobe retired?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2015, 08:26:54 PM »
Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day

Nothing special up here. But if you wanna come to Greece let me know. I go back and forth a lot. Athens is a nice city when you know the local scenes.

But you're more than welcome in Toronto.

Heard Toronto was my shit, thats definitely the first spot i'd go if i headed up north. good lookin out.