The subject of Debate

[Trauma-san]

I've posted this on another thread, tell me what you think. I've been thinking this for years.  

I've realized anything political comes down to liberal vs. conservative... it's a mindset, and it doesn't change.  All politicians do is trick each other, it's like a big chess game.  No republican convinces a democrat or vice versa of their position, they just find a way to screw them over.. it's a power struggle.  

Same thing with all our arguments.  I have evidence to support my claims, you have evidence to support yours.  The one that wins won't convince the other of anything, he'll just be better at orating his evidence.  Debate is useless, just another thing I've learned in life.  The ones with power will ultimately win out, it has nothing to do with rationality, or teaching somebody... I think as kids we all make up our minds what type of people we're gonna be, then we don't stray very far from that, least we admit we were wrong before.  

There are two mindsets of people, some people think like a liberal, some people think like a conservative.  I'm jaded since i'm a conservative, of course I think liberals are crazy, but they probably think the same thing about me.  It's our mindset, just how we think and function, and has been since we were young, and will be until we die.  The environment of our childhood has a PROFOUND effect on what we think and do when we age, we're not all as free-minded as we think.  We're the result of what we've been taught, and what we enjoyed being around as children, I think.  We can't ever escape what we were taught as children, or what we learned, whether taught or just absorbed.  

I can sit here all day and say why I think the death penalty is right, or wrong, or whatever, and i'm not gonna change anybody's minds.  Even if i DID, you'd never admit it, probably not even to yourself.  Same thing with yall; you're never gonna change my mind.

We insult each other's intelligence.  Some people think that the war is wrong; so they say "We're killing innocents!!!!"... do you think we haven't heard that argument, or we didn't realize that?  Do you honestly think we're gonna go "Oh, I didn't know that was happening!!! Stop the bombs, damn you Bush!!!!"  Hell no, we're intelligent... we know that innocent people are dying, we're not blind.  The american media doesn't have us brainwashed like people claim; it's just our mindset.  It's how we think, we think the war is right, nothing will change our mind.

The same thing for the other side.  Yall dont' want the war, even if we went over, nobody died, the people thanked us, everything improved, we found out Hussein was an asshole and the people were begging us to free them, etc. etc. you still wouldn't support the war.  I mean, that's pretty much what DID happen, and still no support for the war from those that opposed it... It's your mindset, nothing I say is gonna change your mind.  I'm not gonna insult your intelligence by pointing out that the innocents that are dying are better off than the ones living under Saddam, or that he kills more people in a month than our month long war has... you know that.  You just think the war is wrong, and always will.  You're pessimistic of everything the american government does, and you always will be, your mind will never change.  

What happens in the end, is one side, whichever that may be; whoever has more power, whether that be oration skills, charisma, status, age, wit, strength, whatever, will win, and the other side wont' change their mind, they'll just find someone weaker to attack.  

You know it's true, come on... lets all just see things for how they are.  I'm gonna raise my kids to be little conservatives, and i'll be a good dad.  You'll raise your kids to be little liberals, and you'll be a good dad.  If we're bad dads, our kids will rebel and have the oposite beliefs.  You see it all day long... when people don't get along with their parents, or don't share their views, it's because their parents suck.  Simple as that.  It all goes back to childhood, Freud was right, Michael Jackson is right, teachers are right, old dirty bastard is right... it's all about the kids.

[Jay ay Beee]

debate is useless, just another thing I've learned in life.  The ones with power will ultimately win out

So you argue your point in order to gain power and be able to implement your views...so how is debate useless?

[Trauma-san]

^^ Nope, wronnnnng.  You don't get any power, because you can't change anybody's mind.  However; if you instill YOUR values in your children, then you'll forever be in power.  


My brother's 15.  When my dad died 2 years ago, I took over the father figure role with him.  Now we're really close, he thinks and acts almost exactly like me.  If I have that effect on 1 child, that old, imagine the effect i'm gonna have on my children who are with me their entire lives.  Imagine the effect your parents had on you, and what you believe... if you get along with them, they probably share similar beliefs, if they were bad parents, you've probably developed opposing beliefs.

I'm not saying I want everybody to share my beliefs, I want you to teach your children what you believe is right, and if you're a good man, your children will probably have those beliefs too, it's just something I've realized.  No big deal really, I'm just saying we're wasting our time debating.  

[Jay ay Beee]

^^ Nope, wronnnnng.  You don't get any power, because you can't change anybody's mind.  However; if you instill YOUR values in your children, then you'll forever be in power.  

So you're are saying that the Republicans will be in power for the rest of time because the democrats will never ever change anyone's mind?

[TheSheriff]

Beef fest ahoy...

[Agua]

exactly. that's just why i don't post in here anymore.

[ITW [the irish boy]]

On one level your argument may work. However you CAN change peoples minds if you hit the right spots. Like you could bring a conservative into a poor area to see how the other side live, and they may be more supportive of welfare increases.
Or in soccer, you can argue over who the best manager for the team would be. You can change someones mind by exposing one candidates weakness and drawing on past experience, their ability to develop players, or you may show them videos of your choice to change their minds. We change our minds all the time. I used to think america was the greatest country in the world, now i seriously question that.

As for kids following their parents, thats not a good thing at all. Younger generations are more liberal (i dont mean in politics) like they are less racist, they are more openminded and each generation progresses. However if we were all to follow exactly what our parents teach we'd get nowhere. You cant make your kid a copy of you. I take what im brought up to believe then compare it to what i personnally think is right and make my own decisions, i think that is the way kids should be brought up. Otherwise therell be a load of mini binladens and mini bushes running around with the same crazyness in another 20yrs

[_That_Cracka_J]

I'm republican too Trauma!  Amen brother.

[willie_d]

I think debating is always important and useful.
It shows the other person what you think, what your beliefs are. The U.S. didn't want any debate at a certain point and just decided to go their own way. That's not right. What if India suddendly said they wanted to occupy the Pakistan becuase they were tired of argueing?
This is exactly the danger of America's actions. A country like Israel shoots up a couple of Palestinians just for precaution. They could be terrorists, you know?
Dialogue is the best argument to get together.  

[mauzip]

you're totally right. you won't make other people think the opposite of what they're thinking. however, the opposite party can start about some points you didn't think about yet.