Author Topic: Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?  (Read 282 times)

Trauma-san

Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« on: October 01, 2003, 08:20:09 PM »
For those that don't know, in biblical history, Lucifer was God's right hand man.  He was his favorite Angel in heaven, even before the earth existed, and Lucifer betrayed God in the garden of Eden... God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, and Lucifer convinced them to, so man was forever forced to have the knowledge of good and bad, and live through pain and joy, instead of living in bliss in the garden of Eden.  Of course, without that, Adam & Eve would never have had children, but that's beside the point, and another discussion.

Anyways, Lucifier was thrown out of heaven, and set up shop tempting people.  The last book of the bible is "Revelations" which is a very mysterious book, in which it tells about the end of the world, it mentions Jesus Christ reigning on earth for 1000 years, etc.  It says that Lucifer will be cast into a firey pit, etc.  

Anyways, since God is so forgiving, do you think he'll eventually forgive Lucifer?  I'm undecided on it.  The bible doesn't mention it, but it doesn't mention a lot of things.  I think that could be the big swerve, is that eventually, Lucifer is forgiven, since God obviously uses Lucifer as a pawn, he used him to give Adam & Eve mortality, and the ability to have children, and etc. etc. etc.  He even used Lucifer to tempt Christ.  There are also passages in the bible with God talking to Lucifer, playing games with people, like they did with poor Job (God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.).  I think in the bigger scheme of things, perhaps God & Lucifer are still aquaintences, working together to accomplish an ends.  

Comments?  
 

UnstoppableForce

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2003, 09:50:26 PM »
Good theory man. I never really thought about that. IMO he might forgive him, but I don't think he has yet.
 

PinkTowelGirl

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 10:00:36 PM »
maybe... if he asks... for it....
 

Trauma-san

Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 10:17:21 PM »
Yeah, that's a good point too, he'd have to ask for it.  
 

Z the laidback Virus

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2003, 05:53:31 AM »
(God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.).  

This is a reason not to be religious.....if you please God you get the worst things of all!! I know this was to test Jobs loyalty but he was completely fucked over because of being so loyal and religious. Forgiving God? The only one in Jobs story who had to be forgiving was Job himself!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 05:54:21 AM by Z-Virus »
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Trauma-san

Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2003, 07:00:33 AM »
That's one way to look at it, but I never followed that logic, for the simple reason that the pain we suffer in life is almost nothing.  The bible also says what was taken away from Job was given back twice, so he ended up being blessed by it.  
 

mauzip

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2003, 11:58:13 AM »
(God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.).  

This is a reason not to be religious.....if you please God you get the worst things of all!! I know this was to test Jobs loyalty but he was completely fucked over because of being so loyal and religious. Forgiving God? The only one in Jobs story who had to be forgiving was Job himself!

lol i stopped telling everybody why i don't believe. it's not like you're gonna convince them of your reality ;)
 

Casper

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2003, 07:16:36 PM »
. Of course, without that, Adam & Eve would never have had children, but that's beside the point, and another discussion.

I'll quote the bible, since you consistenty refer to it in your post.

Genesis 1:27-28 wrote:
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."  


Lucifer did not "betray" God in the garden of eden.

Lucifer was God's highest created being, the wisest and most beautiful of all the heavenly angels, assigned to guard the throne of God. Lucifer grew to love his own power and importance, and was no longer content to serve God. Lucifer decided to disobey God's authority. He wanted to be like God (Isa. 14:12-15). Lucifer used his volition to say no to God's plan. It was the first sin ever and that sin of arrogance plummeted him from his exalted position next to the throne of God to the lowly position of the enemy of God. Lucifer became Satan.

Isaiah 14:12-15 wrote:
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, F17 son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.


When Lucifer became jealous of God, his volition chose the wrong way. Lucifer chose against God. He became the first creature ever to sin.
Lucifer should have been happy and content to serve God. Instead, he had terrible selfish thoughts. He wanted to rule over everything the earth and the entire universe. He wanted to be higher than all the other angels and sit on the throne of God. He wanted to be like God. Lucifer wanted everything God had: all of heaven and earth for himself to do with as he pleased.
Finally, Lucifer decided he would not obey God a moment longer. Right then, when he had these thoughts, Lucifer sinned. He said no to God.
God had to punish Lucifer, the shining angel. Lucifer could no longer guard the throne of God. Instead of living in heaven, Lucifer would be thrown into the lake of fire which God had prepared for all disobedient angels (Matt. 25:41). Heaven is only for those who say yes to God. The lake of fire is for those who say no to God. God created man to show Satan that God's judgment was fair. You may ask how a loving God could condemn anyone to hell. God demonstrates His fairness and justice and love to Satan through His creation of man, who will prove God's judgment is fair.
Even after his fall, Satan is still a mighty angel. He will always be an angel. He is still beautiful, not at all like people picture him a red devil with a tail and horns and a pitchfork.
Although Satan is still a bright, shining angel, he has become God's enemy, Satan, the devil. What happened to this great angel after he chose to disobey God?
After his arrogant sin of disobedience, Satan persuaded many other angels to disobey God. The Word of God tells us that one out of every three angels said no to God (Rev. 12:4a) and joined Satan in rebellion against God.
The bad or fallen angels followed Satan and left God's side forever. The good or elect angels chose to stay with God in heaven (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 fallen angels; Heb. 1:14; Matt. 25:31 elect angels). Since then, an angelic conflict or war exists between God and His elect angels and Satan and his fallen angels because Satan still wants to be "like the Most High."
Satan would not be content with his angelic rebellion in heaven. He watched and waited to see where else he could

In Genesis, chapter 1. It tells how God created the earth we live in, the animals, the water, light, darkness, and us.

Genesis 1:26 wrote:
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."  


Adam was created in the image of God. He possessed self-consciousness ("I am"), self-determination ("I will"), and moral reasoning ("I ought"). He was given volition, a free will. God placed Adam and the woman in the garden of Eden. The setting was perfect. Wonderful food and shelter were provided, ready for them. God had provided for all their needs.
Adam's fellowship with God was perfect, as was his fellowship with the woman, for each was perfect and sinless.
God devised a test for man's volition to see if he would obey God. Man was warned of the terrible consequences if they disobeyed God by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17). If they ate, they would die.
When the man and the woman were placed in the garden of Eden, Satan was waiting to stir up trouble. He tricked the woman into sinning against God (1 Tim. 2:14), but Adam knew what he was doing. Adam deliberately disobeyed.
Satan saw his chance when God made perfect man and woman, and placed them in the Garden on earth. Satan knew God had told them not to eat from one tree in the Garden, or they would die (Gen. 2:17). Satan came along and told them, No, they would not die! (Gen. 3:4).
Satan had made wrong seem right, but he could not make the man and the woman sin. They had their own volition, and they could make their own decisions to obey God or sin with Satan.
The man and the woman said yes to Satan and no to God. They became sinners.
Adam and the woman became sinners by their own choice (Gen. 3:6). They brought sin and death upon the entire human race (Rom. 5:12).

since God obviously uses Lucifer as a pawn, he used him to give Adam & Eve mortality, and the ability to have children, and etc. etc. etc. He even used Lucifer to tempt Christ. There are also passages in the bible with God talking to Lucifer, playing games with people, like they did with poor Job (God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.). I think in the bigger scheme of things, perhaps God & Lucifer are still aquaintences, working together to accomplish an ends.  


No, God is not using Lucifer [Satan] as a "pawn", Lucifer chose to sin out of his own volition.
God is not responsible for sin in any way. A perfect God can have nothing to do with sin. Sin came into the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12).
But sin existed long before mankind was created, As I have explained.
With that said, God could have nothing to do with Satan.

God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, and Lucifer convinced them to

Wrong. He took the form of a serpent (a snake) to persuade Eve. In turn, the trusting Adam took Eve's forsaken advice.

God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.

Satan bet God he wouldn't love him in return if God wasn't so benevolent towards him. So God destroyed all he owned and besieged him with many diseases. Job fell to his knees and pleaded his undying love for the Lord.

 

Casper

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2003, 10:15:57 PM »
Come on Truama i know you didnt make me write that for nothing...
 

Trauma-san

Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2003, 05:58:38 AM »
I haven't got the time yet to respond to it, I will though.  :)  Good post
 

Z the laidback Virus

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2003, 07:41:46 AM »
(God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.).  

This is a reason not to be religious.....if you please God you get the worst things of all!! I know this was to test Jobs loyalty but he was completely fucked over because of being so loyal and religious. Forgiving God? The only one in Jobs story who had to be forgiving was Job himself!

lol i stopped telling everybody why i don't believe. it's not like you're gonna convince them of your reality ;)

I'll second that more or less,and won't meddle in this religious discussion again.

En ja,Mauzip je kan zo vaak je redenen vertellen als je wilt,het werkt toch niet. Tis voor dovemansoren.
Z knows about ALL your inner conflicts..
 

Trauma-san

Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2003, 04:52:00 PM »
I'll quote the bible, since you consistenty refer to it in your post.

Genesis 1:27-28 wrote:
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."  


Lucifer did not "betray" God in the garden of eden.

Lucifer was God's highest created being, the wisest and most beautiful of all the heavenly angels, assigned to guard the throne of God. Lucifer grew to love his own power and importance, and was no longer content to serve God. Lucifer decided to disobey God's authority. He wanted to be like God (Isa. 14:12-15). Lucifer used his volition to say no to God's plan. It was the first sin ever and that sin of arrogance plummeted him from his exalted position next to the throne of God to the lowly position of the enemy of God. Lucifer became Satan.

Isaiah 14:12-15 wrote:
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, F17 son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.


When Lucifer became jealous of God, his volition chose the wrong way. Lucifer chose against God. He became the first creature ever to sin.
Lucifer should have been happy and content to serve God. Instead, he had terrible selfish thoughts. He wanted to rule over everything the earth and the entire universe. He wanted to be higher than all the other angels and sit on the throne of God. He wanted to be like God. Lucifer wanted everything God had: all of heaven and earth for himself to do with as he pleased.
Finally, Lucifer decided he would not obey God a moment longer. Right then, when he had these thoughts, Lucifer sinned. He said no to God.
God had to punish Lucifer, the shining angel. Lucifer could no longer guard the throne of God. Instead of living in heaven, Lucifer would be thrown into the lake of fire which God had prepared for all disobedient angels (Matt. 25:41).

We agree on all this, except for I feel that adam & eve had no means to have children until they fell in eden.

Quote
Heaven is only for those who say yes to God. The lake of fire is for those who say no to God.

Do you have a specific quote to show that God judges us on whether we say yes or no?  And doesn't the bible also say that nobody but God has the power to judge, thereby making it impossible for you or me to determine what criteria God will use to send us to heaven or hell?

Quote
God created man to show Satan that God's judgment was fair. You may ask how a loving God could condemn anyone to hell. God demonstrates His fairness and justice and love to Satan through His creation of man, who will prove God's judgment is fair.
Even after his fall, Satan is still a mighty angel. He will always be an angel. He is still beautiful, not at all like people picture him a red devil with a tail and horns and a pitchfork.
Although Satan is still a bright, shining angel, he has become God's enemy, Satan, the devil. What happened to this great angel after he chose to disobey God?

All of this you interpreted from your beliefs.  To my knowledge, none of this is actual biblical text, it's just your interpretation of it.  My point is, you have your interpretation, I have mine.  We agree on some things, disagree on others (For instance, I agree Satan is still very powerful, and beautiful, etc.)

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After his arrogant sin of disobedience, Satan persuaded many other angels to disobey God. The Word of God tells us that one out of every three angels said no to God (Rev. 12:4a) and joined Satan in rebellion against God.
Quote

Yes.

Quote
The bad or fallen angels followed Satan and left God's side forever.

Forever? Perhaps they at the time wanted to leave forever, but that doesn't mean they will leave forever.  They're all sinners, and imperfect; how many times have we made a decision we later regretted?  Also, since none of these Angels had ever been to earth, they had never been redeemed through Christ, where is their redemtion?  

Quote
The good or elect angels chose to stay with God in heaven (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 fallen angels; Heb. 1:14; Matt. 25:31 elect angels). Since then, an angelic conflict or war exists between God and His elect angels and Satan and his fallen angels because Satan still wants to be "like the Most High."
Satan would not be content with his angelic rebellion in heaven. He watched and waited to see where else he could

Yes, straight biblical facts.

Quote
In Genesis, chapter 1. It tells how God created the earth we live in, the animals, the water, light, darkness, and us.

Genesis 1:26 wrote:
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."  


Adam was created in the image of God. He possessed self-consciousness ("I am"), self-determination ("I will"), and moral reasoning ("I ought"). He was given volition, a free will. God placed Adam and the woman in the garden of Eden. The setting was perfect. Wonderful food and shelter were provided, ready for them. God had provided for all their needs.
Adam's fellowship with God was perfect, as was his fellowship with the woman, for each was perfect and sinless.

Yes, again all straight from the Bible.

Quote
God devised a test for man's volition to see if he would obey God.

Yes, he did.  

Quote
Man was warned of the terrible consequences if they disobeyed God by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:17). If they ate, they would die.

This, is where your entire argument unravels.  God is obviously using Satan (IN HIS EVILNESS, I'm not saying Satan is good! God knows that Lucifer is evil, and is full of treachery).... God, all-knowing, would have INSTANTLY known that Lucifer would tempt Adam, and Eve.  God also would have forsaw Adam & Eve's fall, and that is why the tree is named as it is.  The tree of knowledge of good and evil? COME ON MAN! Don't you see this?  God knew that they would eat the fruit, that's why they were on earth, LOL.  To eat the fruit.  To gain knowledge of good and evil.  To be given the choice to choose good over evil.  If they had no knowledge, they couldn't be held accountable for their sins, and if they had no knowledge, they had no way of accepting good over evil.

Also, since they were immortal in the garden before the fall, they could not have reproduced, because the world would not contain all of their offspring, if nobody ever died.  God knew this, he intended for them to fall, it was all in the plan, and all forseen, that's why he told them to fruit the earth, he knew that they would end up being mortal.  That's WHY THE TREE WAS IN THE GARDEN, lol.  He would have just not even put it there if he didn't know they were going to betray him!  He just USED lucifer.  He knew what lucifer would do, and used Lucifer to get the whole ball rolling.  Lucifer thought he got one up on God, but he knew all along what Lucifer would pull.  That's where we disagree, I think.

Quote
When the man and the woman were placed in the garden of Eden, Satan was waiting to stir up trouble. He tricked the woman into sinning against God (1 Tim. 2:14), but Adam knew what he was doing. Adam deliberately disobeyed.
Satan saw his chance when God made perfect man and woman, and placed them in the Garden on earth. Satan knew God had told them not to eat from one tree in the Garden, or they would die (Gen. 2:17). Satan came along and told them, No, they would not die! (Gen. 3:4).
Satan had made wrong seem right, but he could not make the man and the woman sin. They had their own volition, and they could make their own decisions to obey God or sin with Satan.

Except, at the time, they had no knowledge of good or evil.  So they had no idea of what they were doing (Unlike the angels in heaven, who chose to leave god).  It was a set-up, LOL.

Quote
The man and the woman said yes to Satan and no to God. They became sinners.
Adam and the woman became sinners by their own choice (Gen. 3:6). They brought sin and death upon the entire human race (Rom. 5:12).

Yes.  
Quote
No, God is not using Lucifer [Satan] as a "pawn", Lucifer chose to sin out of his own volition.

Yes, of course he did.  However, God used Lucifer's evil to tempt Adam & Eve, to bring about their mortality, their wisdom, the birth of the entire human race, the coming of christ, the resurrection, etc. etc.   Think about it man.  If they wouldn't have sinned, how could Christ have came? How could Christ have died? How could he have been resurected? It was all part of a huge plan.  Lucifer is not responsible for that great work, it was all God's design.  The trick is, Lucifer thinks he's responsible.  In reality, God WAS using Lucifer as a pawn, he knew what Lucifer would pull, and used it to bring about his great works.  God still does this today, think about it.  


Quote
God is not responsible for sin in any way. A perfect God can have nothing to do with sin. Sin came into the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12).

You're talking about worldy sin.  EVERYTHING by definition comes from God.  Without sin, there would be no measure of God.  If everything was good, then God would be powerless.  With sin in the world, God is God because he rises about it, and never once sins.  If there was no sin, I would be as saintly as Jesus.  I'm not.  The reason there is a difference in us is because of Sin.  Sin has a purpose, and that's why GOD CREATED IT.  God does not Sin.  He does allow sin to exist, however.  You can't argue with that.  In the world, sin looks horrible.  Babies are raped.  That's horrible.  In the celestial sphere, though.. perhaps none of this matters.  We dont see what becomes of that baby that was raped.  Maybe the deceased all wish they were raped as babies, because they reap huge rewards in the afterlife from it... the point is, morbidly, that we just don't know, and while sin looks horrible here on earth, and you of course want to believe God has nothing to do with it, he obviously created it, as he created everything else in the universe.  

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But sin existed long before mankind was created, As I have explained.
With that said, God could have nothing to do with Satan.

Where did it come from, then?  He created it, and uses it for the betterment of everyting.  Remember, God couldn't be good, if there was no 'bad' to NOT be.  



God told Adam & Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge, and Lucifer convinced them to
Quote
Wrong. He took the form of a serpent (a snake) to persuade Eve. In turn, the trusting Adam took Eve's forsaken advice.

Man.  Come on.  Do you think I don't know that?  Lucifer, as a snake, convinced Eve, who in turn convinced Adam, to eat from the tree.  I'm right, you're right, we're saying the same thing.  

Quote
God bet Lucifer he couldn't turn Job away from him, and Lucifer was allowed to curse Job with disease, kill his family, etc.

Satan bet God he wouldn't love him in return if God wasn't so benevolent towards him. So God destroyed all he owned and besieged him with many diseases. Job fell to his knees and pleaded his undying love for the Lord.



Exactly.  That's what I said, right?  
 

Trauma-san

Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2003, 05:05:45 PM »
BTW, did you know that God forsaw Cain's slaying of his brother?  God forsees sin, I'm telling you, he uses it to bring about great works.  That doesn't mean you should go sin, it just means that Satan has no power over God, and no matter what Satan tries, God will always be victorious.  Check out these scriptures, and tell me your interpretation of it:

Genesis 4:3
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his coffering:

5 But unto Cain•and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?


--------------------------------------------------------------------

God rejected Cain's offering.  This is BEFORE Abel was slain.  Something's up.  God obviously knows Cain is a bad seed.




 

Casper

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2003, 05:31:44 PM »
Im too buisy to reply right now but, I will later tonight when I got nothing better to do.
 

ARYC

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Re:Do you think God will forgive Lucifer?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2003, 05:59:08 AM »
great read,props to trauma and A.G.