Author Topic: Agnostic views  (Read 226 times)

That_Cracka_J

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Agnostic views
« on: July 29, 2002, 04:46:48 PM »
My religion is Christianity.  I have a friend who is agnostic and believes when you die, that's it--you're dead.  He thinks that if there is really a God, then bad things wouldn't happen to good people, there would be no violence, the Sept. 11 attacks wouldn't have happened, etc...

I've tried to explain in several different ways about man's free will, but I can't get him to understand that God exists, mainly because he thinks if God DID exist, then there would be no hate in the world.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

bLaDe HeLi[X]

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2002, 05:46:56 PM »
umm I dunno if i'll be able to help, but i'll try...

OK, first of all, we'll never know what God is or how he created us.  Like, a child doesnt know how he was born, all he knows is that he has a mom and a dad who created him...but as he grows older, he matures, and understands the whole process of life and birth.  So similarly, we are just children of God, we dont understand how we were born or how He works, its way past our intellect.  Another thing is, we are not slaves to God, we are his children, and he has given us indivualty, free will, indipendance to make our own destiny, to choose for our selvs etc...We are praying to God FOR OUR BENEFIT, not for his.  Another important thing one should understand is, the 9/11 attacks or any other war is NOT the work of God, it is the work of EVIL MAN....You cannot blame our actions on GOD, it happend because of our free will.  If I murder someone, how is it God fault?  It is mine, for I have commited the murder, no one else.  Blaming these sorta actions upon God is ignorant n selfish...

But "WHY EVIL"??

The existence of evil is a Western thought.  Sikhism does NOT agree with this thought. According to the Bible, God created Adam. Later, from Adam's rib, God created Eve to be Adam's companion. Satan (Evil) misguided them to eat the forbidden fruit. Adam thus became a sinner for disobeying God and was then thrown out of Heaven. We, all humans, being Adam's children, are born sinners and, therefore, we all will go to Hell. However, if we believe in Christ as the only Son of God (according to Christianity) or in Mohammed as the last messenger of God (according to Islam) and follow their instructions we will be saved. On the Judgment Day, these believers will be taken to everlasting Heaven. Non-believers will go to Hell, where they will suffer forever, blah blah blah...
According to the Sikh faith, there is no particular place which is Heaven or Hell.  THIS earth is our play ground and while living on it, we have to play the part assigned to us.  Sikhism says that a person is in Hell if he forgets God and is in Heaven if he loves God. Satan or evil has no existence.

We can discuss some scientific facts to explain this. Heat exists but its counterpart cold does not exist. It is merely the deficiency or scarcity of heat. Also, darkness does not exist; it is the light which exists. Absence or deficiency of light is called darkness. No doubt we feel cold and observe darkness but they have no physical existence. Evil does not exist, only goodness exists. It is simply the deficiency or the absence of goodness which we have named evil.
Some happenings which we do not like (therefore consider them to be evil) are actually not evil. Think of a father asking an unwilling child to not eat so many sweets n choclates.  Failing to motivate the child to stop taking so many sweets on his own, he uses force to stop the child from consuming so much sugar against the kids will.  The child thinks the father is a "devil" forcing him to do something 'bad'. We, grown and mature people,  however, know that eating too many chocolates is bad for the health of the child who wrongly thinks it to be an evil act of the father.  But, as the kid matures, grows older, and experiences the benifts of not eating too many sweets [good teeth for example] he realizes that the act of his father was actually a good act, n that he was caring for his child.  And when this person becomes a father, he will do the same thing to his children who will resent it as he had done himself as a child.
Sun, rain, and storms all are needed for the good life of man. Some places are warm and humid while others are extremely cold (polar regions.) In between these two extremes, all kinds of climate exist on this earth. These extremes are actually the requirements for the comfortable life of some kinds of animals and plants. The variable climate is not for bothering the living beings but for producing a variety of foods and many kinds of physical environment for them to live in
and enjoy.
God is a Father. He forces many things on us to keep us healthy and right. He is a great teacher and has His own ways of teaching us. Waheguru created fire, so that we can keep ourselves warm and cook our food. The fire, when it is out of our control or when we mishandle it, burns us. It may look to be an evil act but it teaches us a lesson about how to use fire with caution. Similarly, our feelings of self-respect, when misused, can become ego to hurt us. We can become possessive, greedy, or miserly, thereby taking the rights of other people and forcing many people to go hungry; this is an evil act.

The most common example mentioned in the debate over "what is evil?" is the eating of the weaker by the stronger. It may not be evil, but may be the way of God keeps  the cycle of living beings continuous. Many animals are herbivores, some are carnivores, and still others are omnivores. Plants are eaten by animals. Like animals, plants are also living beings. Eating of the plants by the herbivorous animals is not an evil act. It is a law of nature for the growth and reproduction of herbivores. Plants grow, produce seeds, get old, and die. When dead, they are broken down to earth by the microbes. When the animals, having eaten the plants all through their lives, die, they are also consumed by microbes. These herbivores might be eaten by other bigger carnivores who themselves die and turn to earth again. The same thing in a cycle happens at the next higher level. Everything returns back to the soil to start another cycle of life.
Evil is only when we disregard the job assigned to us or if we do something which we are not supposed to do, i.e. practice lust, ego, anger, hatred, greed, jealousy, etc. Killing or hurting under the influence of these vicious thoughts is an evil act .These vices grow in us only when we forget to love our Father and His children. Love of God keeps all vices away, hence saves us from committing sins and evil acts.

Your friend prolly asked you WHY God doesnt stop us from doing evil deeds...But God does stop us from doing bad things or wrong things. He has His own ways; we have to understand them. While jumping you may sprain your ankle. It gets swollen and it gives you much pain. That is God's (nature's) way of forcing rest on us. when you get sick, you become weak and do not wish to move about; rather you feel like remaining in bed. That is what Waheguru wants you to do to get into good health.  The same principle works on a larger scale too. If a king is inefficient or unjust the people replace him (if need be, by violence). Maybe a neighboring king will attack him, defeat him and take over his kingdom for better management. The world goes on and nature continues to act according to its principles. We may or may not observe them being implemented by the Great Governor, God.

Sometimes we do not know the greater plan of God and we may not be clear about the part assigned to us. We are supposed to perform our duty with the competency given to us. The world is a huge drama conducted and directed by God. In a drama an actor is required to act according to the will of the director, and not according to his own liking.
In a drama, the son of a wealthy person was assigned the job of a beggar. He acted like a beggar even though he knew very well that he is not a beggar. He was doing the duty assigned to him by the director of the drama. He won an award for good acting. Similarly, in this world, the director, Waheguru, has assigned different kinds of duties to different people. God may make us rich, poor, a scholar, a common man, handsome or handicapped. But the situation in which He puts us, should not matter while we are doing the duty assigned to us. Wherever we are placed, we should do our duty honestly, sincerely, and devotedly, being neither jealous of others nor suffering from any ego.  And remember, we have the ability to change our fate and mold our destiny, God has given us that power.

There is always a reason behind Gods actions, and most of the time we cannot understand it.  Peace, one love...

 -{bLaDe}
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
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That_Cracka_J

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2002, 06:06:18 PM »
Very interesting reading.  That is what I've tried to express, just not in the right form or context...right on.  Reading your response made me remember another good question he asked me.  He asked me if it was wrong for a brother and sister to have sex.  I said of course so he said what about Adam and Eve having kids.  If the world started with just those two, then that means his kids were having sex with each other, or the parents were having sex with the kids.  I couldn't really think of a way to explain this...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

bLaDe HeLi[X]

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2002, 06:37:53 PM »
Quote
Very interesting reading.  That is what I've tried to express, just not in the right form or context...right on.  Reading your response made me remember another good question he asked me.  He asked me if it was wrong for a brother and sister to have sex.  I said of course so he said what about Adam and Eve having kids.  If the world started with just those two, then that means his kids were having sex with each other, or the parents were having sex with the kids.  I couldn't really think of a way to explain this...



Well i aint a christian so i cant explain the Adam and Eve story, im a Sikh.  Having sex with your bro or sis is wrong, even biologicaly.  if you have sex with a family member, the kid will be abnormal n retarded cuz its got sumtin to do with the genes...Its against nature and its against your biological structure, so if he aint gonna beleive in religion, he can atleast beleive in science, peace

 -{bLaDe}
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
Waving My Double Edged Sword, God Sharpened My Blade...
Its Just Me Against The World, And The Evil That He Made...
 

Trauma-san

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2002, 05:58:46 AM »
This is why I love Sikhism... the things you mentioned are almost EXACTLY how latter day saints understand god to be.  You're exactly right, we can't totally understand god, our minds aren't great enough on earth.  You're right about God regulating everything, too, and us getting sick, about the animals eating plants, even though plants have spirits also, etc.  By divine plan, we are basically at the top of the food chain.  Evil, you're correct, is the absense of good... the Devil doesn't MAKE people do bad things, we do it ourselves.  Satan does exist, however.  But he's not some guy making people do bad things, he only glorys in it.  He wants us to lose the way back to our Father, so of course he loves it when things go bad.  Remember, the EARTH itself is in the absense of god!  Being on the earth is being away from god, and being away from good... the earth is in a way evil.  

Many things we consider to be evil, we just don't understand, like you said.  Like a kid doesnt' understand cookies are bad, we might not understand why god would allow a child to be raped, etc.  Maybe if we knew the childs entire spiritual existence, this would only be a small road bump to the child, not significant at all when you consider eternity.  We just don't understand.  

Adam was not evil.  Latter Day Saints do not believe in 'original sin'.  It's an EXTREMELY complicated story, because again, we're trying to understand god.  The whole reason adam and eve were born was to start the human race.  Let me ask you this: how could they populate the world, if there was no death?  If there's no physical death, there couldn't be any birth.  Adam and Eve were designed to fall from the beginning, the whole reason we are on earth is to be allowed our freedom, to be away from god, so we can make our own decisions and grow.  They ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  As soon as they ate it's fruit, they had Knowledge of Good and Evil, whereas before, they were still oblivious... by eating the fruit, they grew, and gained their freedom.  Even if you're in PARADISE, you're not free unless you can choose to leave it!  God didn't kick adam out of heaven! He kicked him out of the garden of eden, they could no longer live in god's presence, because they had committed sin.. but it was all by design.  Satan was a pawn in god's game... he used satan, basically.  Please believe Adam & Eve are sitting right next to god right now, Adam is considered the first priest on earth to latter day saints.  

As far as adam and eve's children having sex, you're right, they did.  However, even if you believe the scientific explanation of evolution, that would still entail the initial 'human' siblings having sex with each other!  No matter how you look at it, we have to all go back to a male and a female.  

One interesting point I wanna make... the bible mentions NO female children of Adam and Eve, but yet, Cain and Abel both married.  It mentions Cain, Abel, then mentions them moving away. How is that possible?  Latter Day Saints hold that the bible has unfortunately been changed, edited, and had passages deleted over time, and the prophet joseph smith was able to restore by revelation some portions of the book of genesis, namely, several sections dealing with satan, and adam and eve's other children.  Peace~
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

infinite59

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2002, 06:32:12 AM »
From a Muslim point of view.  I'll say this....

Everything in nature has a pattern.  Your belief that the sun will rise in the morning is a belief in a devine plan, and without that belief we would all be guessing.  Nature always runs it's course.  Islam, is believed to be the Religion of the Creator Allah, so it follows the laws of nature.  But acts such as destroying and disrespecting your fellow man, homosexuality, and other social poisons go against Allah's plan for us.  

Moreover, without evil, man could not know virtue.  This life is an illusion, to prepare us for the last day.  The world is forever destroying and rebiulding herself.  Allah leads astray who he pleaseth and guides who he pleaseth it's all in accordance to his Plan.

Is not the light seperate from the dark?  Does not the evil doer hold less light then the righteous man?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

Don Seer

Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2002, 07:18:57 AM »
Quote
From a Muslim point of view.  I'll say this....


ok me 'puts on non(not anti) muslim hat' i'll hit you from my perspective... being 'non-religious but righteous' (i've started my own one man 'religion')

Quote
Everything in nature has a pattern.  Your belief that the sun will rise in the morning is a belief in a devine plan, and without that belief we would all be guessing.  Nature always runs it's course.


yup. the sun will rise because its nature is to do so.
its a side-effect because the sun is a big ball of flame that sits there while we spin around it. natural behaviour.

Quote
Islam, is believed to be the Religion of the Creator Allah, so it follows the laws of nature.  But acts such as destroying and disrespecting your fellow man, homosexuality, and other social poisons go against Allah's plan for us.


replace 'against Allah's plan for us'  'against the natural order'
of things.

we are just animals. our purpose is to procreate.

destroying + disprecting is just a mating ritual because in nature dominant males get the pootang.

Quote
Moreover, without evil, man could not know virtue.  This life is an illusion, to prepare us for the last day.  The world is forever destroying and rebiulding herself.  Allah leads astray who he pleaseth and guides who he pleaseth it's all in accordance to his Plan.

Is not the light seperate from the dark?  Does not the evil doer hold less light then the righteous man?


ohh the word righteous ;)
apart from the dogma. its a bill&ted thing... 'be good unto one another' oh and fuck off the haters. ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

infinite59

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2002, 08:02:14 AM »
Quote


ok me 'puts on non(not anti) muslim hat' i'll hit you from my perspective... being 'non-religious but righteous' (i've started my own one man 'religion')


yup. the sun will rise because its nature is to do so.
its a side-effect because the sun is a big ball of flame that sits there while we spin around it. natural behaviour.


replace 'against Allah's plan for us'  'against the natural order'
of things.

we are just animals. our purpose is to procreate.

destroying + disprecting is just a mating ritual because in nature dominant males get the pootang.


ohh the word righteous ;)
apart from the dogma. its a bill&ted thing... 'be good unto one another' oh and fuck off the haters. ;)



You lost me dogg.... did you just give the atheist version of everything I said?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

Don Seer

Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2002, 08:31:57 AM »
i hit it up from my perspective.

most those things arent unique to any specific faith, and are a part of what i consider 'common (sense) moral ground'.
i removed the 'dogma' of islam and hit it up in my words.
where things differ i explained why i thought so.

btw: see the thread 'what am i'.

you can ask questions about my 'new' righteous faith there ;)




 

infinite59

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2002, 08:47:52 AM »
Quote
i hit it up from my perspective.

most those things arent unique to any specific faith, and are a part of what i consider 'common (sense) moral ground'.
i removed the 'dogma' of islam and hit it up in my words.
where things differ i explained why i thought so.

btw: see the thread 'what am i'.

you can ask questions about my 'new' righteous faith there ;)






Islamic theology is based on common sense and there's a reason for everything in the religion.  Nothing is done just because, "God said so."  There is a plan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

Don Seer

Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2002, 08:53:56 AM »
Yeah I know. hmmm *ponders*

(mostly) agreeing doesnt make me islamic.

maybe when we've found out 'what i am' it will help ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »
 

infinite59

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Re: Agnostic views
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2002, 09:05:22 AM »
Quote
Yeah I know. hmmm *ponders*

(mostly) agreeing doesnt make me islamic.

maybe when we've found out 'what i am' it will help ;)


lol.. word
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by 1034398800 »