Author Topic: do you consider rappers musicians?  (Read 1044 times)

7even

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2004, 04:25:34 AM »
I dont consider Rap low end music, hella no focker, but sayin that Dre can touch Beethoven in a way is just ridicolous.
Cause I don't care where I belong no more
What we share or not I will ignore
And I won't waste my time fitting in
Cause I don't think contrast is a sin
No, it's not a sin
 

M Dogg™

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2004, 08:37:47 AM »
Producers are musicians, rappers are poets.

truth by the man everyone wants to ignore 'cause his pretty in pink.

Anyways, I'll even take it a step further, if rappers aren't musicians, then are they artist. Some rappers I would say are artist are ones like 2Pac, Nas, Outkast, well 50 Cent, Biggie and LL Cool J are just rapper. A rapper can be lyrically gifted and all, but tend to just be there to rap or entertain. Biggie of course being the greatest at that. Artist in hip-hop are rappers that take their lyrics to another level. Someone like 2Pac was not the most lyrically gifted in rap, but made every lyric so you can feel his emotion, and through his lyrics... made art. But that's a whole 'nother arguement.
 

NobodyButMe

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2004, 08:43:34 AM »
Not only are rappers musicians; but hip-hop is superior to all other forms of music.  Making rap artists the greatest musicians of our era, or any era for that matter.  There is melody, rythym, tone, and pitch in their voices when they rap.  They say one note high and one note low.  

This is something I've always said, Dre is a better producer, composer than Mozart, Beathoven, or any of those dead guys.  Eminem is a better artist and paints a more vivid picture than Vango with a paintbrush.  Eminem and 2pac have more musical talent than anyone to ever touch a microphone or hold a stage in any time period.


okay this is where i go off:

you think that rappers are superior cuz they say one not high and one note low?!!!!!! are you fucking retarted?

dre is the  man......but he's only the man in the world of hip hop!! bach beethoveen mozart shcubert , et are masters of all music! most of which composed songs and melodies that were 23 -40 minutes long.......dre composes beats that are 3-6 SECONDS at best long , and loops them for 4 minutes! who's the better composer here!? most of these composers wrote different riffs for a many as a 100 different instruments to play at one time.....that's variations of a song for damn near 40 minutes of music , up to or more than 100 instruments playing efficiently at beatifully at once!!! dre on the other hand samples 3 beats asks collin wolfe or mike elizando to create some bass then scraps together a 3 second  drum loop...........impressive for a hip hop artist but not nearly as impressive as a 100 piece orchestra play many differet things at once and making classic shit that last  over 100 years.....and as far as longevity goes and is concerned, more people are likely to recongnize a bach riff from a few hundred years ago than a dre riff from last year on an obie trice cd! hell i even put dre's most well known song "nuthin but a g thang up against" fur elise.......and more people in the world will recognize and LIKE fur elise. also when you study the notation and structure of a peice (A PEICE!) of music from a bethoveen song it's more complex and artistic than any dre song here's an example



nothin' but a g thang (entire song)

|-7-5-------|----7-5-7-9-7-5---------
|-----7-5-7-|-----------------7-6-5-6
|------------|------------------------
|------------|------------------------
|------------|-----------------------
|------------|-----------------------
|------------|------------------------

THA"TS IT!!!!! that is the whole song,this is what took dre probably 2 months to make!

infinite pick up a guitar, this song is soooooo fucking simple even a beginer could play this shit


now for some classical shit:

7----(7-------------------(7-----10-|-10-----10---------------------0-0--12-|
-7----)7--7-----------7----)7-----8--|-10---------------7-8-7^8^7----0-0--0--|
-7--7-(7-----7-----7-------(7--------|-11--------11-----7-7-7-----9--9-11-9--|
-9--9-----9----------------)9--------|-12--12--------------------------------|
-9-----------------------------------|-12------------12----------------------|
-7--------------7--------7-----7-----|-10------------------------------------|

sl.                sl.                                  H P
-----------------7--7--/12-|--12-----12----------8--7--10-7^10^7--|
-----------8--8------------|--12---------12--12--0--5--0-------7--|
-----------9--9--7--7--/9--|--12---------9---9---0-----0----------|
---------------------------|--14--14-----9------------------------|
----/9--7------------------|--14---------10-----------------------|
--0------------------------|--0---0-------------------------------|
                                                  (end Rhy. Fig. 1)


okay: this shit is like 5 seconds of a 20 minute song by bethoveen
metallica covered a portio of it on their song "to live is to die" so if you must heear it...

but yeah.....not bad for a fucking deaf dude huh? not bad for someone who couldn't hear what he was doing

also another thing , mozart was writing (great) symphanies when he was just a kid at 8  years old........something dre couldn't do at 40 !

classical music is known as high class art
rap music is known as low end art

that right there automatically  void's your little opinion.

as far as eminem painting a better more vivid picture than van gogh...no shit!

real art isn't something you look at and say wow he really drew that guys face pretty realistically!! that is simple and and low end art... high end and real art is what van gogh made. he made art that you had to think about . shit you had to look at and interpret. eminem is a true artist i will give him that but don't say stupid shit like he's up there or above van gogh




it's CLEAR you have no scense of art!





^^word. exactly what i was trying to say, but don't have the means or passion to put it down like that
 

NobodyButMe

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2004, 08:45:58 AM »

I dont consider Rap low end music, hella no focker

i wouldn't think many people on a rap forum would consider rap music 'low end music' - but the rest of society considers rap the worst form of music.
 

NobodyButMe

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2004, 08:51:02 AM »
Don, I'd also like to chime in that Dre didn't even write Nothin' but a G thang, he just sampled the shit, lol.  If you've heard I wanna do something freaky to you, it's the same exact fucking beat.  That would be like my biggest accomplishment as a producer being a new version of The Watcher.  It'd be the same beat Dre did, lol.

and dre even admits that he doesn't write his own lyrics on some songs...
 

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2004, 08:52:16 AM »
and to back up don again, i think that the roots are amateur musicians as well....
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2004, 10:57:48 AM »
Not only are rappers musicians; but hip-hop is superior to all other forms of music.  Making rap artists the greatest musicians of our era, or any era for that matter.  There is melody, rythym, tone, and pitch in their voices when they rap.  They say one note high and one note low.  

This is something I've always said, Dre is a better producer, composer than Mozart, Beathoven, or any of those dead guys.  Eminem is a better artist and paints a more vivid picture than Vango with a paintbrush.  Eminem and 2pac have more musical talent than anyone to ever touch a microphone or hold a stage in any time period.


okay this is where i go off:

you think that rappers are superior cuz they say one not high and one note low?!!!!!! are you fucking retarted? here is a complete list of singers who do the exact same thing ....BUT BETTER!  any of these artists could do what a rapper could do, BUT no rapper could do what they do....


steven tyler: listen to 'dream on'.....on the real only 2% of the male population in this planet could sing that well. and even less could hit that climax note as effectively and frequently and consistantly and as beatiful as steven tyler....oh yeah also, watch the making of "walk this way" with run DMC , it's sad really. Steven tyler is rapping and and freestyling better than Run and Darrell!!!! also go listen to the OG walk this way and it's CLEAR steven tyler flows on that song better than run or dmc! and you want to know what's really sad .........steven tyler has more soul in his voice than many black singers!

chris cornell-like i said above there is only 2 % of the male population that could sing as well and hit notes like steven tyler, and chris cornell is apart of that exclusive club. lsiten to various soundgarden songs and it becomes clear. chris could go from deep and menacing soft and soothing to a high pitched folseto that rivals mariah cary....then after shreeking out a high pitched note he could go back to johnny cash-like low again. that is almost anatomicaly impossible......but he could do it, oh yeah and it doesn't hurt that he can play an instrument effectively at the same time.....something no rapper has done.

freddy mercury- dude was a genius , like steven tyler and chris cornell he possesed a insane range. he also the gift of many vocal techniques that many go to vocal schoool for to learn



all three of these dudes graced mics better than rakim!!!! this is only 3!!! three!!!!! artists of a thousand (literally) that i could name that posses greater vocal skills than any  2 bit rapper!




dre is the  man......but he's only the man in the world of hip hop!! bach beethoveen mozart shcubert , et are masters of all music! most of which composed songs and melodies that were 23 -40 minutes long.......dre composes beats that are 3-6 SECONDS at best long , and loops them for 4 minutes! who's the better composer here!? most of these composers wrote different riffs for a many as a 100 different instruments to play at one time.....that's variations of a song for damn near 40 minutes of music , up to or more than 100 instruments playing efficiently at beatifully at once!!! dre on the other hand samples 3 beats asks collin wolfe or mike elizando to create some bass then scraps together a 3 second  drum loop...........impressive for a hip hop artist but not nearly as impressive as a 100 piece orchestra play many differet things at once and making classic shit that last  over 100 years.....and as far as longevity goes and is concerned, more people are likely to recongnize a bach riff from a few hundred years ago than a dre riff from last year on an obie trice cd! hell i even put dre's most well known song "nuthin but a g thang up against" fur elise.......and more people in the world will recognize and LIKE fur elise. also when you study the notation and structure of a peice (A PEICE!) of music from a bethoveen song it's more complex and artistic than any dre song here's an example



nothin' but a g thang (entire song)

|-7-5-------|----7-5-7-9-7-5---------
|-----7-5-7-|-----------------7-6-5-6
|------------|------------------------
|------------|------------------------
|------------|-----------------------
|------------|-----------------------
|------------|------------------------

THA"TS IT!!!!! that is the whole song,this is what took dre probably 2 months to make!

infinite pick up a guitar, this song is soooooo fucking simple even a beginer could play this shit


now for some classical shit:

7----(7-------------------(7-----10-|-10-----10---------------------0-0--12-|
-7----)7--7-----------7----)7-----8--|-10---------------7-8-7^8^7----0-0--0--|
-7--7-(7-----7-----7-------(7--------|-11--------11-----7-7-7-----9--9-11-9--|
-9--9-----9----------------)9--------|-12--12--------------------------------|
-9-----------------------------------|-12------------12----------------------|
-7--------------7--------7-----7-----|-10------------------------------------|

sl.                sl.                                  H P
-----------------7--7--/12-|--12-----12----------8--7--10-7^10^7--|
-----------8--8------------|--12---------12--12--0--5--0-------7--|
-----------9--9--7--7--/9--|--12---------9---9---0-----0----------|
---------------------------|--14--14-----9------------------------|
----/9--7------------------|--14---------10-----------------------|
--0------------------------|--0---0-------------------------------|
                                                  (end Rhy. Fig. 1)


okay: this shit is like 5 seconds of a 20 minute song by bethoveen
metallica covered a portio of it on their song "to live is to die" so if you must heear it...

but yeah.....not bad for a fucking deaf dude huh? not bad for someone who couldn't hear what he was doing

also another thing , mozart was writing (great) symphanies when he was just a kid at 8  years old........something dre couldn't do at 40 !


classical music is known as high class art
rap music is known as low end art


that right there automatically  void's your little opinion.



as far as eminem painting a better more vivid picture than van gogh...no shit!

real art isn't something you look at and say wow he really drew that guys face pretty realistically!! that is simple and and low end art... high end and real art is what van gogh made. he made art that you had to think about . shit you had to look at and interpret. eminem is a true artist i will give him that but don't say stupid shit like he's up there or above van gogh




it's CLEAR you have no scense of art!






Jake, there is no doubt u know what u're talking about, yea, those are great musicians.Although u have got to admit that  it's very hard to compare the creativity and artistic quallities u draw from Bethoveen,Shcubert or even Steven Tyler(and any other musician\singer from any erea of music from these last decades for that meter ) to the creativity U draw from quallity HipHop. While most of music is essentialy about energy, vibe, moods, musical(instrumental) complexity and in beter cases lyrical substance,  Rap is undoubtly  the lyrical leader of the parade, no meter how u look at it, even mathematicly u can see that sung poetry is  relatively poorer when it comes to vocabulary and it is also delivered onto the music in a simpler manner, while  sung lyricism can get repetative in terms of delivery (like no spoken word  delivering lyricist that respects himself can alow ) and while uneven bars could be euaqlized and edited only by streching one note, or simply by shortening it, A rapper has to use what we call Lyrical abillities to fill in the possible gaps while he does not only have to fill in the missing word but also remain a thematical value, another advantage of Rap lyrics is that in general they structurewise mannage to come out most vivid and cinematic while lyricists in rest of music stumble over abstract metaphorical technics (I can understand though how a guy with your taste would prefer abstract lyricism only judging by your coment on the paitings) with themes that are noticeable and probably felt by fans, only that are not executed that well in terms of word for word describtion or storytelling, there are exceptions on both sides to both ways but still, we're talking about the dominant  mass, as for vocal abillities, we have got to remember that  most rappers are not singers and that most singers are not rappers ,  I can't imagine any singer carrying out
"N.Y State Of Mind" better than NAS did it, Just like I can't imagine any rapper preforming "Prophet's Song" better than Freddie Mercury did it.
Another aspect I just have to touch is musical complexity, yes, HipHop is relatively simplistic musicly and it is as easy proven mathematicly(just like u proved Jake while comparing "nothing but a g thang" to that classical piece) as the fact Rap is richer when it comes to Lyrical structuring, but one thing is obvious though, the spoken word delivery is best working under it's well tested best friend
The repetative loop, once in my life I would like to see a rapper flow to some classical joint in it's original form without sampling it or looping it. I guess this is the prise we have to pay for complex lyricism.

as for the question weather I consider Rappers musicians, frankly, the action of rendering rappers as musicians, poets, preachers, artists or anything else is not what will make me apriciate their art less, one thing could be said for sure, it mos' deffenetly(just like the rapper 8)) is art.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Trauma-san

Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2004, 12:16:07 PM »
Yeah, I never said they weren't talented or weren't 'artists', I just said they sure as hell ain't musicians.  I don't really consider them poets either, because they're just too different, it's a diff. type of art, no rapper alive can match the great poets of all time, but they're not trying to, they're just doing their own thing.  I would agree that they're storytellers, lol.  
 

NobodyButMe

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2004, 12:44:42 PM »

Jake, there is no doubt u know what u're talking about, yea, those are great musicians.Although u have got to admit that  it's very hard to compare the creativity and artistic quallities u draw from Bethoveen,Shcubert or even Steven Tyler(and any other musician\singer from any erea of music from these last decades for that meter ) to the creativity U draw from quallity HipHop. While most of music is essentialy about energy, vibe, moods, musical(instrumental) complexity and in beter cases lyrical substance,  Rap is undoubtly  the lyrical leader of the parade, no meter how u look at it, even mathematicly u can see that sung poetry is  relatively poorer when it comes to vocabulary and it is also delivered onto the music in a simpler manner, while  sung lyricism can get repetative in terms of delivery (like no spoken word  delivering lyricist that respects himself can alow ) and while uneven bars could be euaqlized and edited only by streching one note, or simply by shortening it, A rapper has to use what we call Lyrical abillities to fill in the possible gaps while he does not only have to fill in the missing word but also remain a thematical value, another advantage of Rap lyrics is that in general they structurewise mannage to come out most vivid and cinematic while lyricists in rest of music stumble over abstract metaphorical technics (I can understand though how a guy with your taste would prefer abstract lyricism only judging by your coment on the paitings) with themes that are noticeable and probably felt by fans, only that are not executed that well in terms of word for word describtion or storytelling, there are exceptions on both sides to both ways but still, we're talking about the dominant  mass, as for vocal abillities, we have got to remember that  most rappers are not singers and that most singers are not rappers ,  I can't imagine any singer carrying out
"N.Y State Of Mind" better than NAS did it, Just like I can't imagine any rapper preforming "Prophet's Song" better than Freddie Mercury did it.
Another aspect I just have to touch is musical complexity, yes, HipHop is relatively simplistic musicly and it is as easy proven mathematicly(just like u proved Jake while comparing "nothing but a g thang" to that classical piece) as the fact Rap is richer when it comes to Lyrical structuring, but one thing is obvious though, the spoken word delivery is best working under it's well tested best friend
The repetative loop, once in my life I would like to see a rapper flow to some classical joint in it's original form without sampling it or looping it. I guess this is the prise we have to pay for complex lyricism.

as for the question weather I consider Rappers musicians, frankly, the action of rendering rappers as musicians, poets, preachers, artists or anything else is not what will make me apriciate their art less, one thing could be said for sure, it mos' deffenetly(just like the rapper 8)) is art.

good points. but, here comes another argument - what can be considered art? i thought art was painting and/or drawing on a surface ?!?! when should a hip hop song or rap track be considered art? is then, a musical piece, like a beethoven symphony, considered art? i think people throw around that term too often like it should be respected the same way monet is. 'oh he's an artist.' so someone like the "artist" cam'ron is mentioned in the same breath as van gogh? oh hell no.....anyone else see my point? i'm just sick of everyone saying 'this guy is a great artist' and blah blah blah. i don't think cam'ron should ever be considered an artist. much like i could write a rhyme and would never consider myself an artist.
 

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2004, 02:18:37 PM »

Jake, there is no doubt u know what u're talking about, yea, those are great musicians.Although u have got to admit that  it's very hard to compare the creativity and artistic quallities u draw from Bethoveen,Shcubert or even Steven Tyler(and any other musician\singer from any erea of music from these last decades for that meter ) to the creativity U draw from quallity HipHop. While most of music is essentialy about energy, vibe, moods, musical(instrumental) complexity and in beter cases lyrical substance,  Rap is undoubtly  the lyrical leader of the parade, no meter how u look at it, even mathematicly u can see that sung poetry is  relatively poorer when it comes to vocabulary and it is also delivered onto the music in a simpler manner, while  sung lyricism can get repetative in terms of delivery (like no spoken word  delivering lyricist that respects himself can alow ) and while uneven bars could be euaqlized and edited only by streching one note, or simply by shortening it, A rapper has to use what we call Lyrical abillities to fill in the possible gaps while he does not only have to fill in the missing word but also remain a thematical value, another advantage of Rap lyrics is that in general they structurewise mannage to come out most vivid and cinematic while lyricists in rest of music stumble over abstract metaphorical technics (I can understand though how a guy with your taste would prefer abstract lyricism only judging by your coment on the paitings) with themes that are noticeable and probably felt by fans, only that are not executed that well in terms of word for word describtion or storytelling, there are exceptions on both sides to both ways but still, we're talking about the dominant  mass, as for vocal abillities, we have got to remember that  most rappers are not singers and that most singers are not rappers ,  I can't imagine any singer carrying out
"N.Y State Of Mind" better than NAS did it, Just like I can't imagine any rapper preforming "Prophet's Song" better than Freddie Mercury did it.
Another aspect I just have to touch is musical complexity, yes, HipHop is relatively simplistic musicly and it is as easy proven mathematicly(just like u proved Jake while comparing "nothing but a g thang" to that classical piece) as the fact Rap is richer when it comes to Lyrical structuring, but one thing is obvious though, the spoken word delivery is best working under it's well tested best friend
The repetative loop, once in my life I would like to see a rapper flow to some classical joint in it's original form without sampling it or looping it. I guess this is the prise we have to pay for complex lyricism.

as for the question weather I consider Rappers musicians, frankly, the action of rendering rappers as musicians, poets, preachers, artists or anything else is not what will make me apriciate their art less, one thing could be said for sure, it mos' deffenetly(just like the rapper 8)) is art.

good points. but, here comes another argument - what can be considered art? i thought art was painting and/or drawing on a surface ?!?! when should a hip hop song or rap track be considered art? is then, a musical piece, like a beethoven symphony, considered art? i think people throw around that term too often like it should be respected the same way monet is. 'oh he's an artist.' so someone like the "artist" cam'ron is mentioned in the same breath as van gogh? oh hell no.....anyone else see my point? i'm just sick of everyone saying 'this guy is a great artist' and blah blah blah. i don't think cam'ron should ever be considered an artist. much like i could write a rhyme and would never consider myself an artist.

no Cam'ron is no artist, although Em is, Tupac was, Big was, so is Talib Kweli and so is Mos Def, so r Outkast ,Blackalicious and others, see, aproaching the defenition of "artist" as a Level one needs to get to or to be at is completely acceptable...still I think "ART" is the only word to categorise or define greats like these.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 02:49:31 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
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M Dogg™

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2004, 08:44:55 AM »
no rapper alive can match the great poets of all time

True, now that one dead rapper from Oakland, you know his name.... 2Pac, he was a poet. His book of poetry was great, and his music was great. His one of the very few rappers I think can compare to the all time great musicians. His impact on music is general will be felt for along time. His up there with Kurt Cobane, with John Lennon, with Marvin Gaye, as one of the greatest musical artist in the 20th Century.
 

Trauma-san

Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2004, 08:48:02 AM »
I Honestly don't really like Tupac very much, on pretty much any level.  I will admit though that he was a poet.  
 

infinite59

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2004, 08:52:20 AM »
To break it down...  Alot of you are saying....  "Rappers aren't real musicians because making hip-hop beats isn't that complex."   And the notes of classical music were compared to the notes played in "Nothin But A G Thang".  I can't argue that.  Yeah, composing classical music is more complex.

But I don't care if your making music with sticks and trashcans.  If it's dope, it's dope.  And if you can make your music sound as good with a stick and a trashcan, as Mozart can with an orchestra; then that makes you better than Mozart.  

Secondly, I would put the lyrics of "Stan", "The Way I Am", "Me And My Girlfriend" or anything on Illmatic up against any "poet" of any era.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2004, 08:54:39 AM by Ibrahim Islam »
 

mauzip

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Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2004, 09:11:34 AM »
cam'ron no artist? then what is he? :-\ he's a rapper that brings out cd's and you say he's no artist? ::) :o
 

Trauma-san

Re:do you consider rappers musicians?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2004, 09:16:39 AM »
To break it down...  Alot of you are saying....  "Rappers aren't real musicians because making hip-hop beats isn't that complex."   And the notes of classical music were compared to the notes played in "Nothin But A G Thang".  I can't argue that.  Yeah, composing classical music is more complex.

But I don't care if your making music with sticks and trashcans.  If it's dope, it's dope.  And if you can make your music sound as good with a stick and a trashcan, as Mozart can with an orchestra; then that makes you better than Mozart.  

Secondly, I would put the lyrics of "Stan", "The Way I Am", "Me And My Girlfriend" or anything on Illmatic up against any "poet" of any era.

Where you fuck up though, is when you assume you're right, LOL.  Just survey, oh, the 4 Billion or so people that have heard music since Beethoven wrote it, and ask them which they prefer.  Again, your arrogance and lack of respect is hilarious.