Author Topic: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan  (Read 1170 times)

Trauma-san

Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2004, 08:53:13 PM »
Lets look @ the world the Ibrahims and Jimmy Carters et al. would have us living in.


When Reagan took office, the Prime Rate on loans and credit was 21.5 percent.  21.5 percent, what is it now, 5 percent?  5 fucking percent!  He cut the 21.5 in HALF by the time he left office.  Now, that's only to help the rich, right? Bullshit.  Who borrows fucking money? EVERY BODY borrows money.. especially those who don't have it.  How hard is that to understand?  How does that help the rich?   Do people like Inf. not understand fucking percentage points?  Go back to the third grade.  

When Reagan took office, get this shit... an 85,000 dollar loan on a house... today, that wouldn't buy shit... but anyways, the mortgage payment on that loan, 85 grand, was fucking 1090 dollars a month.  1090 dollars a month for a half-ass house!  By the time he left office, the mortgage payment on an 85,000 dollar loan was 750 bucks.  Who does that help? The Rich? Yeah, but it helps the poor too.  Any fool can see cheaper loans helps small businesses, helps anyone who buys a house, etc.  

When Reagan entered office, inflation was rising at 13 percent a fucking year.  Economists said it was impossible to increase the GDP, and actually reduce inflation... well, Reagan must be a magician, because that's exactly what the fuck he did.  He expanded the economy by a fucking THIRD, 33%, and reduced inflation rates to a low of 3%.  3 fucking percent... they said it was impossible, but through classical economics, and supply-side economics as opposed to demand-side economics, Reagan accomplished just that.

@ the beginning of the 80's, we had the threat of Nuclear War hanging over our heads.  Reagan freed half of europe, and ended the threat nearly single-handedly.  I know you think you know better, Inf, but ask Margaret Thatcher who the fuck ended the cold war, and she'll tell you 1 man did it: Ronald Reagan.  

Do a little more homework before you spout off such bullshit.  Tech, you deserve a slap in the face for the condescinding way you speak of the President.  You should be fortunate enough to live in this country, let alone run your mouth, you ignorant fuck.  
 

Trauma-san

Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2004, 09:02:39 PM »
This is for M Dogg.


M Dogg, stop listening to what your parents are telling you, because they've been drinking again.  You said the United States was making the poor have more money up until Reagan.  You weren't fucking BORN then, don't give me that shit.  In case you didn't know, and you obviously don't, the United States was in the middle of a huge fucking depression when Reagan was elected.  It wasn't the rich people out of jobs, it was the fucking poor people.  Gas was 3 and 4 bucks a gallon, if you could even buy it, becuase the stations were out of it.  Jimmy Carter had almost ruined the entire fucking presidency, they were having talks in congress asking if the PRESIDENCY, was too big for 1 man, because Carter obviously wasn't fit to handle it.  Reagan won in a landslide... becuase the nation was FUCKED and in the middle of a huge depression, the likes of which you've never seen, because you're too fucking young.  Interest rates were at 21 percent.  Inflation was at 13 percent.  Jimmy Carter was having fireside chats telling the people of America to "Turn down the thermostat and put on a sweater".  Can you believe that shit?  He was going around saying that Americans had it too good, and that the years ahead were going to be full of struggle.  Along comes Reagan.


His message was

"Recession is when your neighbor loses his job.  Depression is when you lose yours; Recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his"

and then he did just the fuck that.  You said he wanted to give the rich tax cuts.  Does your ignorant ass even know what the tax rate was in America then for the rich?  Try 70 percent... that's right, if you were in the highest tax bracket, you made 30 cents out of a dollar.  The effect of that, Under Carter's presidency, was that people that had the ability to make money; simply didn't.  Why would you bust your ass, making tons of money, if you had to pay the government 70 cents out of the dollar?  Fuck, just work less, and bring home more money... how hard is that to understand?  As a result, the  economy slowed, because those that were truly making money chose not to.  There was no incentive to work when you don't get paid for it, even if you ARE rich.  It's really quite simple.


Reagan's plan?  Cut the 70% down to 50%.  Get the rich making money again, spending money again, and the economy would grow again.  Everyone benefits from that.  

Guess what? You say it doesn't work... but it DID work.  Open a fucking history book if you don't believe me.  Shit.  How can you sit here and dispute it, when IT WORKED!  IT WORKED.  There's no question about whether or not it does, IT DID!  Your Democratic GOD, John Kennedy, DID THE SAME THING when he cut the taxes from 90% to 70%!  IT WORKS!  Wake up, and just open your eyes, it's NOT THAT HARD OF A CONCEPT TO UNDERSTAND.  
 

Woodrow

Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2004, 09:59:56 PM »
M Dogg, stop listening to what your parents are telling you, because they've been drinking again.
Lol!
 

M Dogg™

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Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2004, 11:55:55 PM »
M Dogg, stop listening to what your parents are telling you, because they've been drinking again.
Lol!

First off, my dad don't drink, second off, I got numbers. But mainly I'll say this.

Yes, the United States was suffering in the 70's, it started with Richard Nixon, and continued though Carter. Carter was not a great leader, great man, great peace keeper, not a great leader. Now, the trickle down economy did work to help rich and middle class, BUT, as number prove, the working class suffered greatly. The working class was making less money, there was less help, Vietnam Vets lost their benefits, World War II vets lost their benefits, Korean War vets. Now regardless of what I joke around on the board about, I am not a socialist, I just play one on the internet. I'm going to get on my true believes about Reagan, because I feel very strongly about the first person I remember being president, so there is not really an M Dogg post, but a true Martin Olague post.

We start with his campain again Carter, I have studied it, I will say it's political genious. The man can campain. I remember him on TV later in life, and I was a little kid just in awe of the man I saw before me. I can remember thinking, there is no other man that can be president. The man as a speaker, a politican, a public figure, I can honestly say in my life time, which is only 4 presidents deep, I see no other equal. Bill Clinton comes close, but Reagan not only wouldn't have gotten off with what Bill Clinton was charged with, it would have never even gotten that close to impeachment, because Reagan was too popular to mess with.

As time goes on in life, I started finding out more, especially about his support of dictators in Latin America. Now to everyone else here, it's nothing, I mean using 3rd World nations as a way to gain world political power is a common practice in some of your opinions, and is needed in some cases. Me, I found out, and to hear about what went down in Latin America, I began to realize that maybe Reagan has faults. Then hearing about Saddam in Iraq during Gulf War I, I began to wonder if he was truly an great president. But no matter, Bush Sr. is president, so why worry about the past.

Of course shortly after, the Soviet Union falls, no Reagan gets credit now for ending the Cold War. News flash, the Soviet Union should get credit, because it was not Reagan standing up to the Soviet Union that ended the Cold War, the Soviet Union was falling from within, and the Soviet Union was the reason why Eastern Europe was Communist to begin with. When Mikhail Gorbachev took over, he commented on how the Soviet Union has rockets that can circle the moon, but people in the Soviet Union were still starving. I will give Reagan his due, he did talk to Gorbachev. Check this out.

Gorbachev Confers with Reagan
A part of Gorbachev's plan to improve the economy was to reduce military spending. He believed that the Soviet military was absorbing too much wealth and scarce resources, and he believed that one way to reduce military spending was to make an arms agreement with the United States. The President of the United States, Ronald Reagan, had been calling the Soviet Union an evil empire. Reagan wanted to build up the supply of nuclear bombs for the sake of forcing a reduction in bombs later. He was afraid of nuclear war and was committed to developing a perfect defense system, called Star Wars -- which his critics in the United States were complaining would seem to the Russians to give the U.S. a first strike advantage (a perfect defense eliminating the possibility of retaliation).

Gorbachev had a different view about defense than had Khrushchev and Brezhnev. Khrushchev and Brezhnev had believed that Soviet military prowess was necessary to restrain the capitalist powers from attacking the Soviet Union and its satellites. Instead, Gorbachev saw U.S. leaders as rational, as not interested in destroying the Soviet Union through war and as wanting to avoid a nuclear holocaust. Gorbachev believed that the capitalist powers were not in need of restraint provided by the Soviet Union.

Some were to describe Reagan as having forced Gorbachev to adopt his new policy toward the Cold War -- in other words, to back down because of the Soviet Union's inability to keep up with U.S. advances in military spending. But no evidence exists that Gorbachev's policies were motivated by any threat from the United States. Gorbachev did not feel compelled to match the military programs of the United States. He argued with his military -- which wished to keep up with the U.S. militarily. Reagan's Star Wars idea and his hostile attitude toward the "evil empire" made Gorbachev's arguments with his military more difficult. In these arguments, Gorbachev remained convinced that reductions in military spending were necessary to improve the economy, and Gorbachev let military spending decline with the decline of the economy in general.

Back in April, 1985 -- his first month in office -- Gorbachev had announced his first unilateral initiative: a temporary freeze on the deployment of intermediate-range missiles in Europe. Gorbachev met Reagan at Geneva a few months later, in November 1985, and again in October 1986 at Reykjavik in Iceland, and yet again in May 1988 at a summit meeting in Moscow. Gorbachev and Reagan became friends, Gorbachev recognizing that Reagan sincerely wanted to avoid a nuclear holocaust, that he was a man of decency and sincerity, a former actor who was not faking it. And Reagan saw Gorbachev as something other than an evil Communist robot. Gorbachev convinced Reagan that he was sincere in wanting to end the arms race and in collaborating with the West in restructuring relations. Reagan became the leading "dove" in his administration while anti-Communist Republican hardliners called Reagan "a useful idiot for Soviet propaganda" and "an apologist for Gorbachev."

Gorbachev stunned Reagan's advisors by agreeing to disarmament proposals that they had put forth merely as a bargaining ploy. Meanwhile, Gorbachev's attitudes were making him popular in Western Europe and the United States, where people were calling him "Gorbie." And soon Gorbachev would win the Nobel prize for peace.


I personally feel Reagan was in the right place at the right time for the end of the Cold War. The Soviet Union was at it's end.

On to other issues. Reagan I feel was a very currupt president. Like all presidents though, what can I say. But Reagan hurt the country in a way not seen since LBJ. LBJ cut taxes and raised military spending, and hurt the economy. Reagan did the same thing, but to keep the economy aflout, he also cut social programs, that help out people, and this hurt the working class greatly. I never knew that Bill Clinton was changing the tax brackets to what they once where. Before the poor paid a higher rate, not higher net dollars. But let me ask you this, if you make $20,000 a year, and you are taxed 25%, you are taxed 5,000, so your net pay is $15,000, how is that far, compaired to a man that is paid $100,000, and is taxed 10%, or $10,000, so his net pay is $90,000. Plus the reason many middle class qualify for social programs is because LBJ simply said, the middle class pay the most taxes, therefore they should benefit the most. You guys are not even knowing that middle class people can benefit greatly off of things like Federal Aid for College, Unemployment, and other programs, and in fact, benefit more so than poor. That's because people like Ronald Reagan made social programs a bad word. Now I would never say socialism is the way to go in real life, (sorry to all the liberals that think I was truly a socialist) but I do believe in social programs. I believe in Unemployment, College Aid, Welfare and food stamps to struggling mothers, job programs, and I believe the biggest group to benefit should be the middle class, because they pay the taxes. But Reagan made these programs into bad words. We must never support these things. Hell, Reagan was the one that for a year took out the department of public education.

Now this is for Trauma, well I'm in my actual mode

I'll say exactly how I feel about tax cuts. I am in real life, an old school democrat. I am not a radical liberal like you think I am. I do believe in tax cuts, I feel as though if done right, tax cuts could be the best thing for our country. After all, I'm not exactly happy when I have a big chunk of my check missing, and I can't wait until the new year to file a tax return. With that being said, I feel if done right tax cuts are one of the greatest things we can do. But if done right. Why did the working class still suffer under Reagan. Notice difference in words I use. Working class as oppose to poor, why, because your average blue collar worker is still suffering under tax cuts. If you combined tax cuts with social reform to direct more money to the working class, such as raise min. wage, overtime pay, increase in social programs, then tax cuts can be a blessing. But, to cut taxes, and increase military spending, as well as not finding ways to get money to the working class, then the working class suffers, they are the backbone of the United States. It's the working class that workes the factories, repairs the roads, and does all the little stuff to make this great country run. I am truly a supporter of the working class, and when the rich got the tax cut, they money didn't trickle down far, instead it was saved. If you take a basic economic class, and Reagan was an econ major, you will learn that trickle down economy works. But in practice is was never used correctly by Reagan, I think Bush Sr. did a lot to try and repair it, with is increase in help to working class people, but Reagan during his presidency was not helping. The economic boom of the 90's was not because Bill Clinton raise rich taxes, liberals would like to believe, but because Bill Clinton cut taxes on the middle class and working class. Why, well if you have no money, and you need more money, when you get money, your going to spend it. Bill Clinton's working class tax cut was the final thing that was needed to have full economical recovery from the mess the LBJ left. The raising of rich taxes was not needed, but hey, it would have been nice if Reagan had cut lower class taxes. Being serious, I do respect Reagan for at least staying awake during his econ class, and taking something from it, Reaganomics was basically econ 101, which was needed in a time that needed it the most. But he never completed it, he left it were the rich got richer, but the poor was getting poorer. Instead he spend ill advise money on the military, because he wanted to be safe from the Soviet Union, and when Clinton cut military spending, we freed up tons of money to be used. Also, Reagan took a page out of FDR's book, and borrowed tons of money to also boost the economy. Difference, FDR did it too pull us out of the Great Depression, Reagan borrowed to keep the economy a going to keep his popularity points up. We are in a huge debt now, but we weren't in a depression, just a political battle. Reagan took money out of no where to regain control of the United States, but never had plans to pay it back. That's another reason why the tax cut work under him, he borrowed money to cover his ass. Such as Bush is doing now. Reagan was a careless politican, that charmed his way into the White House, and did a good job keeping himself in there. But what he did for homeless, the working class, war vets and poor unemployed people was very heartless. He is suppose to lead everyone in our great country, and he only represented those that put money into his pocket.
 

Woodrow

Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2004, 05:26:03 PM »
M dogg-

 

Montana00

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Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2004, 05:49:37 PM »
^^^^ always enjoy a good picture reply from you.

 

Don Jacob

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Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2004, 02:09:37 AM »
m dogg and trauma are BOTH right here.....Reagon did ALOT of good for the Country and some major bad.....me and my family being on the short hand of that stick, so you can't say he was a bad or good president.....he was the right man for the job at the time , do your research on how the country was back then, yeah there was some fucked up draw backs to reagonomics...but the country would've and could've been in a worse situation without some of his shit.  His presidency was so so .....but as a person dude was a grade A good person.


R.I.P.



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Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2004, 12:49:50 PM »
m dogg and trauma are BOTH right here.....Reagon did ALOT of good for the Country and some major bad.....me and my family being on the short hand of that stick, so you can't say he was a bad or good president.....he was the right man for the job at the time , do your research on how the country was back then, yeah there was some fucked up draw backs to reagonomics...but the country would've and could've been in a worse situation without some of his shit.  His presidency was so so .....but as a person dude was a grade A good person.


R.I.P.

Agreed, people neglect to look into the state of the US when Reagan took power, they had just come off some bad Presidents.

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M Dogg™

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Re:Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2004, 12:56:45 PM »
m dogg and trauma are BOTH right here.....Reagon did ALOT of good for the Country and some major bad.....me and my family being on the short hand of that stick, so you can't say he was a bad or good president.....he was the right man for the job at the time , do your research on how the country was back then, yeah there was some fucked up draw backs to reagonomics...but the country would've and could've been in a worse situation without some of his shit.  His presidency was so so .....but as a person dude was a grade A good person.


R.I.P.

Agreed, people neglect to look into the state of the US when Reagan took power, they had just come off some bad Presidents.

I take a look at the good too. He was an economics major, and economics was his thing. Reaganomics was the first step to recovery, Clinton, another president who's focus was economics, complete the recovery. I just feel that as a person, Reagan was not that great, I give him a grade D, because we could have had full economical recovery with a tax cut to the poor, but instead we didn't, and his cutting of social programs hurt a lot. Also, he ended the department of education for a year, and his abuse of peoples civil rights across the globe really shows me that he was not a truly good person at all, but only cared about his own political gain in his home country.
 

M Dogg™

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2008, 10:07:00 PM »
damn... this was an oldie... lol... were my arguments really that long... I miss the days when I had that kind of time for a response like that.
 

Shallow

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2008, 07:17:53 PM »
I wonder since Infinite is now libertarian what his thoughts on welfare and social programs are now?
 

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2008, 12:55:09 AM »
I wonder since Infinite is now libertarian what his thoughts on welfare and social programs are now?

As a Libertarian I would cut all social programs and turn everything over to the free market.

Although I was correct in saying that a huge chunk of our taxes actually goes towards the military industrial complex and only a small chunk goes towards wellfare.  So to blame high taxes on wellfare like Reagan did, misses the point.

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Shallow

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2008, 09:23:33 AM »
I wonder since Infinite is now libertarian what his thoughts on welfare and social programs are now?

As a Libertarian I would cut all social programs and turn everything over to the free market.

Although I was correct in saying that a huge chunk of our taxes actually goes towards the military industrial complex and only a small chunk goes towards wellfare.  So to blame high taxes on wellfare like Reagan did, misses the point.




I don't disagree that Reagan was as good a friend to the Free Market as Bush was. Regan himself admitted in his memoirs that he never accomplished what he wanted to accomplish as president and couldn't keep his initial campaign promises. I don't think anyone could ever walk into that office and make any real changes unless the establishment wanted them made.

I was just wondering how your opinions on certain things changed over the years. I'm a libertarian just like you, and if I were to find some of my political ideas from '04 I'd probably be ashamed of myself. I once even had a commie phase.
 

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2008, 05:33:55 PM »
I wonder since Infinite is now libertarian what his thoughts on welfare and social programs are now?

As a Libertarian I would cut all social programs and turn everything over to the free market.

Although I was correct in saying that a huge chunk of our taxes actually goes towards the military industrial complex and only a small chunk goes towards wellfare.  So to blame high taxes on wellfare like Reagan did, misses the point.




I don't disagree that Reagan was as good a friend to the Free Market as Bush was. Regan himself admitted in his memoirs that he never accomplished what he wanted to accomplish as president and couldn't keep his initial campaign promises. I don't think anyone could ever walk into that office and make any real changes unless the establishment wanted them made.

I was just wondering how your opinions on certain things changed over the years. I'm a libertarian just like you, and if I were to find some of my political ideas from '04 I'd probably be ashamed of myself. I once even had a commie phase.

Ya... supposedly Reagan was sounding really Libertarian when he was campaigning for office.  But then once in office he presided over a government increase that was much longer then his Democratic counterparts, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter.

Reagan's War on Drugs is a BIG government program which has had disastrous consequences.  it has lead to far greater violence on the streets, prisons and jails being flooded with non-violent drug offenders, and hugely expensive have been all the "Say No to Drugs" D.A.R.E. programs which have not lead to any decrease in drug use.

Also he was an advocate of the hugely costly Star Wars space war program, and others of the military industrial complex such as their involvement in propping up South and Central American dictators one day and then disposing of them the next day in a sea of war and violence.

........

...as for you mentioning our past, yeah I think we were both sociolists in our past, but how could we not be?  All we learn and are taught in government schools growing up is about the great successes of government over the course of history and they never mention that nearly everything we love from music, to computers, to technology, and on and on.... were all provided to us by the free market, against the greater efforts of the government to turn it all into a giant beuracracy and delay progress. 
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Real American

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Re: Let's tell the truth about Ronald Reagan
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2008, 08:14:57 PM »

Damn, I dropped some knowledge on page 2.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 09:14:48 PM by Real American »