Author Topic: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel  (Read 818 times)

Don Rizzle

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Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier
Clashes between Palestinian protesters and Israeli soldiers have halted work on the most controversial section of Israel's West Bank security barrier.
Protesters threw stones at bulldozers attempting to begin work levelling land near the Ariel settlement bloc, deep in the West Bank.

Israeli soldiers responded by firing tear gas.

Palestinians say the barrier is designed to grab their land, but Israel says it is to prevent suicide bombings.

Israel and the US had previously agreed to postpone work on the barrier around Ariel, near the village of Iskaka.

Hundreds of protesters were involved in the clashes, which saw a bulldozer's windscreen shattered but there were no reports of injuries.


The arrival of bulldozers came just hours after US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said late on Tuesday that the section of the barrier enclosing the Ariel enclave was problematic.

"It's a problem to the extent that it prejudges final borders, that it confiscates Palestinian property, or that it imposes further hardship on the Palestinian people," Mr Boucher said.

The Ariel settlement bloc is one of the largest of the Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories.

Under international law all settlements in what is considered occupied territory are illegal.

A United Nations report has condemned the barrier as illegal and tantamount to "an unlawful act of annexation".

Part wall and part fence, the barrier, if completed, will run for 640km (397 miles) through the West Bank.

'Promise'

Israel's Haaretz newspaper has reported that the land seizures around Ariel uphold a promise given by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu which clinched the latter's support for the Gaza disengagement plan.

Mr Sharon, the newspaper said, promised that the separation fence in the Ariel area would be completed before the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip was finished.

Land seizure orders are reportedly expected for areas around two other settlements built deep in the northern West Bank, Emmanuel and Kedumin.

The US administration has not opposed the barrier in principle but has called for it to run close to the Green Line, the internationally accepted demarcation line between Israel and the West Bank.

The Israeli government is committed to building a barrier around Ariel and nearby settlements. No official decision has been made to link this to the parts of the barrier that run closer to the Green Line.

An Israeli military spokesperson told BBC News Online "the security fence around Ariel is being built in accordance with the understandings with the US government".

Palestinians say that Israel plans to link the Ariel barrier to larger West Bank barrier, effectively annexing large parts of territory - and some of its most fertile land - to Israel.
its disgusting israel continues to steal land and america still supports them, if they want to build a wall they can do it on their own land, palestinians wouldn't even have a problem with that but instead they get treated like animals

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

infinite59

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2004, 07:16:01 AM »
Yep.  Isreal is biulding a large fence around the Palestinians to make what little land the Palestinians have left into a prison compound, with towers, electric wires, checkpoints, patrols, everything.  Palestinian land is just a large prison.
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2004, 07:17:54 AM »
not to mention they are taking the most fertile land and leaving palestinians with shit

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2004, 09:25:55 AM »
 :P
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2004, 09:55:48 AM »
i take it your proud of what your country is doing then?

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2004, 10:30:45 AM »
It just emuses me and enoyes me at the same time, How people eat up any radiculous Land grab theory the pro palestinian propoganda spreads, just to justefy their next suicide bombing...
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2004, 11:02:59 AM »
why not build your security wall on your own land? then it wouldn't be a land grab, instead all your doing is making sure your illegal settlements stay jewish, demolishing palestinian towns in the process, there is absolutly no justification. why do u think they want to blow ur guys up look at what your doing to them! look at the death tolls who died more? certainly not israeli's! you turned what is left of palestine into a large prison and continue to take more and more.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

smerlus

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 12:06:22 PM »
why not build your security wall on your own land? then it wouldn't be a land grab, instead all your doing is making sure your illegal settlements stay jewish, demolishing palestinian towns in the process, there is absolutly no justification. why do u think they want to blow ur guys up look at what your doing to them! look at the death tolls who died more? certainly not israeli's! you turned what is left of palestine into a large prison and continue to take more and more.


a prison is 4 walls...not 1 or 2.....it's kind of easy to escape a 2 wall prison
 

Montana00

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 12:23:21 PM »
America should build a dome around our land and lock it.

then build an artificial sun, and moon. That would be kinda cool. That way we would never get attacked because nobody could come in, because the door would be locked.
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 02:31:56 PM »
why not build your security wall on your own land? then it wouldn't be a land grab, instead all your doing is making sure your illegal settlements stay jewish, demolishing palestinian towns in the process, there is absolutly no justification. why do u think they want to blow ur guys up look at what your doing to them! look at the death tolls who died more? certainly not israeli's! you turned what is left of palestine into a large prison and continue to take more and more.
a prison is 4 walls...not 1 or 2.....it's kind of easy to escape a 2 wall prison  
military check points where ever they go, not aloud to go onto their own land etc... they are also gonna build a mote on the palestinian boarder to egypt. you obviously think its so good why take your holiday there
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 02:35:07 PM by Don Rizzle »

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2004, 04:51:10 PM »
It just emuses me and enoyes me at the same time, How people eat up any radiculous Land grab theory the pro palestinian propoganda spreads, just to justefy their next suicide bombing...
was reading this article and i thaught about your comment about pro palestinian propoganda spreads maybe you should take a read....

Quote
Mid-East coverage baffles Britons
UK television news coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is confusing viewers and favouring the Israeli position, a new report says.
The study, by the Media Group at Scotland's Glasgow University, found Israelis were quoted more than twice as much as Palestinians in reports.

It said that news programmes did not provide enough information about the conflict's history and origins.

Many viewers were also not even sure who was "occupying" whose territory.

Language differences

Researchers focused on the BBC One and ITV News channels' coverage from the beginning of the current Palestinian intifada, examining more than 200 programmes and interviewing more than 800 people, including several prominent BBC correspondents.

They found that, in addition to "a preponderance of official Israeli perspectives", US politicians who support Israel were "very strongly featured" in news programmes, appearing more than politicians from any other country and twice as much as those from Britain.


The report takes issue with a tendency in the media to present the problem as "starting" with Palestinian action, while Israelis were seen to be "responding" with actions that were explained and contextualised.
"There was very little discussion of the nature of the relationship between the two sides - that one [the Palestinians] was subject to military control by the other [Israel]," the report says.

Researchers also found a strong emphasis on Israeli casualties on the news despite the number of Palestinian deaths being considerably greater.

And the differences in language used by journalists for both sides were also noted.

"Words such as 'atrocity', 'brutal murder', 'mass murder', 'savage cold blooded killing', 'lynching' and 'slaughter' were used about Israeli deaths but not Palestinian," the report said.

"The word 'terrorist' was used to describe Palestinians by journalists but when an Israeli group was reported as trying to bomb a Palestinian school, they were referred to as 'extremists' or 'vigilantes'."


'Breaking news' culture

The survey also showed that the average British person knew little about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Many people in Britain think the Palestinians are occupying Israeli territory and not the other way round and some think Palestinians are refugees from Afghanistan, despite extensive media coverage of the conflict.


Sometimes the why and how of a story are more important than the story itself
BBC News Online reader Paul Serwinski
Several journalists interviewed for the report blamed lack of time and the difficulties of reporting such a controversial topic for the dearth of adequate background explanation, while others pointed to intimidation of journalists by both sides.
Many BBC News Online readers blamed the "breaking news" culture for reducing news to sound bites instead of offering comprehensive coverage of one of the world's most covered but least understood conflicts.

"The history is the missing aspect in all coverage today," said BBC News Online reader Rakesh Jain from the US.

"This results in the people being susceptible to 15-second television sound bites and they totally misread the reasons for the problems."

While UK reader Douglas Shaw picked up a point suggested in the report, that there is a tendency among journalists to present Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as vulnerable communities, rather than having a key military and strategic function.

"The BBC could choose to describe all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza as being 'illegal'," Mr Shaw wrote.

"This would be a small step forward in helping public understanding."

History lessons

Senior BBC news executive Mark Damazer denies any suggestion of anti-Palestinian bias in the corporation's coverage of the conflict, but concedes that because of the "grammar" of TV news important context is often left out.


People watch the news night after night and at the end of the day they have no understanding what the conflict is all about
Greg Philo, Glasgow University
"Sometimes important points of history get lost amidst the welter of coverage," he told BBC World Service's Newshour programme.
But he said correspondents and editors were aware of the risks and take their responsibility "very seriously" to sketch in the missing context over time.

And as far as the language of news is concerned, he said there was no evidence that the BBC had been "cowed" into being pro-Israeli.

"When BBC correspondents have to describe the West Bank and Gaza Strip they don't say 'disputed' territory, they say the territories are 'occupied'."

But Glasgow University's Greg Philo that told the same programme that the facts speak for themselves.

"You can't have a history lesson each time you do the news, but the problem is 80% of the population rely on television news for their information about the world," he said.

"They watch the news night after night and at the end of the day they have no understanding what the conflict is all about."

I totally agree up until about a year or two ago i never even knew israel was was only 60 years old or how it was created, its only because i went out and searched for the infomation myself read history etc. i have a full picture of the situation. i ust to feel sorry for israelis thinking they were attacked for little reason....

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2004, 10:50:03 PM »
why not build your security wall on your own land? then it wouldn't be a land grab, instead all your doing is making sure your illegal settlements stay jewish, demolishing palestinian towns in the process, there is absolutly no justification. why do u think they want to blow ur guys up look at what your doing to them! look at the death tolls who died more? certainly not israeli's! you turned what is left of palestine into a large prison and continue to take more and more.

let's start with this, settlers are Israeli citizents- we build the wall departing them from Israel, Israeli citizens die, simple as that, and as for these settlements being Illegal-we've already gone through this with u, I would agree to remove the settlements if every Palestinian living on Israeli territory was moved to the Palestinian authority....cause while our settlers may be the reason to the arival of Israeli soldiers into the authority(to protect the settlers), Arabs that live on Israel's territory also get all kinds of financial support from Israel and are treated as Ctizents while in fact are in complete support of millitant groups in the Paletinian authority- and tend to co-operate with them. Their strategic vallue is 10 times more important to the Paletinian millitants than the Israeli defence force portecting the settlers  to Israel.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 02:32:32 AM »
the truth of the matter is most Israelis want to kick the arabs out anyway plus keep the settlements which are continualy being built. my honest opinion israel should never of existed, if a jewish state should be anywhere we should have given you half of germany, we were wrong to give you part of palestine. but since we did israel should be confind to what we gave you.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 06:31:33 AM »
the truth of the matter is most Israelis want to kick the arabs out anyway plus keep the settlements which are continualy being built. my honest opinion israel should never of existed, if a jewish state should be anywhere we should have given you half of germany, we were wrong to give you part of palestine. but since we did israel should be confind to what we gave you.

yea, the UN played an important part in the formal declaration of Israel, Although I doubt there was another option neither logiclly nor morally(Logic and Morals for some reason aren't very synonimous in reallity) , after the haulacaust it was clear to everybody Jews needed a state of their own, as for It's current geographical location being a wrong choice- I think u have a very twisted perception of the whole conflict, and trully I don't blame u, cause after all you're constantly being put to the very effective anti Israeli propoganda, but let's put it aside, U should know that basiclly on the first day of Israel's formal existance it was atacked, under those original boarders we were granted by the UN, we were atacked, and it certainly wasn't the last time Israel was atacked by it's neighbour states, that declined it's right to exist, The Palestinian's aren't diffrend in their viewes towards Israel, however what is diffrend is the fact they have a more urgent interest, cause while Egypt and Syria dreamt to unite and had a long term political plan Palestinians were more worried about the new neighbour that in their eyes endangered their everyday lives, and may I remind u this was more than 50 years ago, and situation was difffrend, be4 the settlments, be4 the Israeli deffence force having anything to do with them, be4 the refugee camps...they were anti Israeli way be4 Israel had any millitarry effect on them....
as for most Israeli's wanting to kick out all of the arabs out and keep the territory....well, I could say this with 200% of positivety about all- and underline the word-all of the Palestinians....the complexity of the situation lies in learning how to co-exist....
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2004, 07:41:46 AM »
ok explain me this why wouldn't israel except the cease fire agreement? why did they take out all references to UN boarders in their declaration of independence? like i said before the media is very slaunted in support of israel even in britain I just feel for the palestinian people i hope they get a fair deal, they have already lost so much why should they lose more? and i agree both sides do need to co exist arfrat has recently shown alot more willingness to co oporate regretting not excepting clintons deal, putting pressure on militant groups, recognising israel should stay jewish etc. yet israel shows little willingness to cooporate and still does everything on their own terms even going against america who are extremely lienent towards israel. is we could sort out the whole conflict the whole middle east would be alot more stable.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2004, 09:48:44 AM »
ok explain me this why wouldn't israel except the cease fire agreement? why did they take out all references to UN boarders in their declaration of independence? like i said before the media is very slaunted in support of israel even in britain I just feel for the palestinian people i hope they get a fair deal, they have already lost so much why should they lose more? and i agree both sides do need to co exist arfrat has recently shown alot more willingness to co oporate regretting not excepting clintons deal, putting pressure on militant groups, recognising israel should stay jewish etc. yet israel shows little willingness to cooporate and still does everything on their own terms even going against america who are extremely lienent towards israel. is we could sort out the whole conflict the whole middle east would be alot more stable.


one sided cease fire- it's all it would soon become, why the hell camp david didn't work?!- doesn't that interest u?.....it's a metter of manipulation, Arafat brings instabillity, and than suddenly turns into this peace seeking creature(in the eyes of the world), Im surprised at how people don't notice the decieve, he'd like to continue suicide bombings without dealing with the consequenses, we lost hope in Arafat, we don't trust him, Israel doesn't have a terrtorial interest, we don't need any land, all we're looking for is security, any action of the Israeli deffence force is made to protect Israeli citizents....
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2004, 10:51:34 AM »
you can't possibly think that back then taking out references to UN defined boarders had anything to do with security, but more to do with ambitions to enlarge the jewish state. understandably palestine were upset about losing half their country but maybe something could have been worked out at the time i remeber the king of jordan offering to step in, or even some other peace keeping force might have been worked out through the UN but after the british left but israel wasn't intersted.

you talk about past failings, why not try and work towards peace NOW its never too late and just remember who have been the net losers! it was earlier today you were talking about co-existence or did u just mean jewish control? if israel has no terrirtorial interest why does it continue to illegally build settlements on palestinian land? the fact of the matter is they wouldn't need securing if they wern't there.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2004, 12:42:51 PM »
lol....The original boarders the UN defined back than are those same boarders the Palestinians supposebly want Israel to withdraw to, in their perfect senario today(if we asume they do except the exisitance of the state of Israel at all)....no offence, but I doubt that u know what u're talking about, I quote:  "understandably palestine were upset about losing half their country"
u should know that there has never existed such country, in fact, a creation of a Palestinian state is something they might strive to nowadays, but back than it was a Land where a number of tribes and peoples exsited on, besides Jews , some were mobile, did u know how the Palestinian declaration defines a Palestinian ? goes like this--" a person who lived on the land of Palestine since year so and so...", What Im saying is basiclly this, you're worshiping a fiction,  as many alikes of u do,the Palestinian agenda was created only to overweight the Jewish people who somehow intimidated their contemporary's, such nation as Palestinians never even existed be4, they created themselves for this occasion, the history created much sympathy towards opressed people, even the Jews themselves may've been a part of this legacy, people sub-consiously tend to look for live examples of this easy to relate to fenomenon, what u guys don't understand is that the Palestinians are a slightly diffrened case, they could've learned to co-exist easilly, problem was they had power thirsty figures that would rather live in richess while their so called people are dieing, starving or comeeting suicide.....co-existance is very important, the people who run Israel know it, right wingers as much as left wingers, but on the way to co-existance certain barriers need to be taken down, not only physical but also psychological, Israel does not build settlements, in fact it even battles settlers who are trying to start new settlements, Israel recognises the fact new settlements are not healthy, and  u need to realise that Israel has no territorial interest, anyone who sayes Israel has a territorial interest doesn't know what the conflict is about....
Quote
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2004, 12:49:32 PM »
i know palestine still isn't officially a country but that still doesn't give any other country the right to take land they have owned for hundreds of years away from them. and yes b4 israel was born jews muslims and christians all lived at peace in palestine, go figure that one out.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re:Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2004, 01:03:21 PM »
i know palestine still isn't officially a country but that still doesn't give any other country the right to take land they have owned for hundreds of years away from them. and yes b4 israel was born jews muslims and christians all lived at peace in palestine, go figure that one out.


again, it's very important to understand that the actual percentage of Palestinian land owners was relatively low, many of the people who were defined as Palestinians later were for their most part mobile up untill a certain period of time, dwellers, just like Beduins, that small amount of Land owners even if they have ever been robbed of land were never robbed by Jews(Although during the yeshuv some of them sold their lands to Jewish investors through mutual agreements), The original boarders mapping took into consideration such isues, so to tell u the truth no territorial isue should've existed back than, unless there was something more than territory.
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2004, 10:38:21 AM »
well from what i have read the person who lead to israel to independence didn't want to be confined by the UN boarders and had bigger ambitions for israel hence taking out references to UN boarders. then in 67 it was redefined and israel wants another redefinition now.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

I TO DA GEEZY

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Re: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2004, 06:17:55 AM »
well from what i have read the person who lead to israel to independence didn't want to be confined by the UN boarders and had bigger ambitions for israel hence taking out references to UN boarders. then in 67 it was redefined and israel wants another redefinition now.

don't really know what is that you read, and who is that mysterious person you're talking about, but point is that Israel's original boarders back in 48 are the boarders they want us to retreat to nowadays(if you believe what they say) and under which we were atacked by the whole Arab world on the first day to our existance...
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

Don Rizzle

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Re: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2004, 07:13:22 AM »
David Ben-Gurion learn the history of ur own country he was ur first prime minister

Quote
From the inception of Zionism, the Zionist leaders have fed their people false propaganda. Probably the picture above can tell you a bit of the real story. It is misleading and unfair to focus on what Palestinians might allegedly do in the future, while Palestinians' past and present are filled with Israeli war crimes. These types of accusations are meant to deflect and confuse the core issues of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.  The core issues of the conflict are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer) of the Palestinian people for the past five decades, and the conflict would have been on the same level of intensity, even if both warring parties were Muslims, Christians, or even Jewish. 

From the start, the Zionist leaders were keen on creating a "Jewish State" based on "Jewish majority" by immigrating Jews to Palestine in mass numbers, which was primarily motivated by the fleeing European Jews from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany. When it became increasingly clear to the Zionist leaders at the time (such as Ben-Gurion and Theodor Herzl) that it was impossible to achieve Jewish majority solely based on immigration and natural growth, they concluded that forcible "population transfer" (Ethnic Cleansing) was the only solution to the "Arab Problem." Year after year, the plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people became known as the "transfer solution". David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated the "transfer solution" as the following: 

In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938:
"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." 1 
 
In a speech addressing the Central Committee of the Histadrut on December 30, 1947:
"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." 2 
 
And on February 8th, 1948 Ben-Gurion also stated to the Mapai Council:
"From your entry into Jerusalem, through Lifta, Romema [East Jerusalem Palestinian neighborhood]. . . there are no [Palestinian] Arabs. One hundred percent Jews. Since Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, it has not been Jewish as it is now. In many [Palestinian] Arab neighborhoods in the west one sees not a single [Palestinian] Arab. I do not assume that this will change. . . . What had happened in Jerusalem. . . .  is likely to happen in many parts of the country. . .  in the six, eight, or ten months of the campaign there will certainly be great changes in the composition of the population in the country." 3 
 
In a speech addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6th, 1948:
"We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area ..... I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of Arab population." 4 
For Israeli Zionists to excuse themselves from any war crimes, such as compulsory population transfer (Ethnic Cleansing) and dispossessing the Palestinian people, they've resorted to a myth that Palestinians left their homes, farms, businesses, banks, boats, cars, ..etc. based on their free will.5

There is no denying of the fact that some Palestinians think exactly like the Zionists (which is the Palestinian version of Zionism), and very possibly they do so because they were the victims of such treatment. Regardless of whether it is right or wrong, you have to agree that it is human nature to respond to terror with terror and to racism with racism, which are facts that all decent people must accept and deplore simultaneously. No matter what the circumstances are (such as the urge to seek vengeance, revenge, reprisals, ... etc.), targeting civilians to achieve political or military objectives, in either war or non-war situations, is terrorism. It is worth noting that the Palestinian people have been on the receiving end of Israeli terrorism, the chief of which are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of 8.5 million Palestinian for the past five decades.

Finally, the Palestinian mainstream does not and will not condone massive ethnic cleansing the way Israeli Zionists have done to the Palestinian people. Palestinians, as Muslim and Arabs, have their long history and track record to prove exactly the opposite. Omar Ibn al-Khatab's and Saladin’s conquest of Jerusalem are solid proof of how Arabs and Muslims fairly treated their defeated subjects, the Byzantines and the Crusades respectively. Ironically, many of today's Christian Palestinians trace their roots to the Crusades, such as the famous Rock family of Jaffa. In other words, if freeing Palestine shall imply perpetrating war crimes similar to the ones perpetrated against the Palestinian people, Palestinians shall wait for another Omar or Saladin to right the wrongs of the past. The Muslim Arabs have their history to prove their tolerance towards their subjects, however, the Israeli Zionists have their track record to speak for them.

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Are you aware that in March 1948 the United States, along with China and France, was withdrawing from its earlier commitments to partition Palestine, and was pressing for "trusteeship" - an extension of Great Power rule- in Palestine beyond May 15th, 1948? 14  And on March 19th, 1948, Ben-Gurion responded to the idea of UN trusteeship in a press conference in Tel-Aviv with the following:
"It is we who will decide the fate of Palestine. We cannot agree to any sort of Trusteeship, permanent or temporary. The Jewish State exists because we defend it." 15

It should be noted that since November 1947 the UN GA failed to reaffirm the 1947 U.N. partition plan.

Are you aware that the 20th Zionist Congress, which convened in Zurich in August 1937, almost UNANIMOUSLY REJECTED the British proposed partition plan of Palestine (which became known as the Peel Commission Partition plan)? 16. Although the proposed Peel Commission's partition plan was rejected because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" was "too small," the concept of partitioning the country was adopted by the 20th Zionist Congress. Consult the Peel Commission map (URL available at footnote 17) which was rejected by the 20th Zionist Congress, and the map proposed by the U.N. in 1947 (available at footnote 18). While inspecting both maps, note the following:

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We call upon your sense of fairness while contemplating the following questions:
 
1) If the Peel Commission plan was accepted by the Zionists in 1937, how many Jews might have been saved from the Nazi holocaust? In that respect, it is worth quoting Ben-Gurion, who wrote twenty years later: 
"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel."19

2) If the Zionist Jews rejected such an offer, which could have "saved" many Jews from the Nazi holocaust, why are the Palestinians often blamed for rejecting a plan which allocated them much less land in 1947?
 
3) Why is the same excuse accepted by Zionists for rejecting the 1937 Peel Partition plan, but not accepted when used by Arabs for rejecting the 1947 UN GA Partition plan?


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Are you aware that the 1947 UN GA proposed partition in favor of creating a "Jewish State" in Palestine was outside the competence of the Assembly under the Charter of the United Nations? Nowhere in the UN's charter was there the power to partition any country, especially based on racial or religious grounds. Even if the UN had such power to partition a country, such a resolution is not binding since it was indorsed by General Assembly rather than Security Council.

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Assuming in 1947 Israeli Jews constituted a 2/3 majority, and owned and operated 93% of Israeli lands, contributed 55%-60% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), would you accept a U.N. imposed partition of Israel in favor of an alien settler minority? 
It should be NOTED that currently Palestinian-Israeli citizens make up 20-22% of the total population, so is it acceptable for the United Nations to partition Israel in a favorable way to its Palestinian minority? As an Israeli Jew, would you accept a UN GA proposed partition of Israel?   

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In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for "Jewish state" on part of Palestine only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest when he wrote:
 
"[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." 27

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Ben-Gurion wrote in his dairy on November 30, 1947 after the UN's vote to partition Palestine into two states:
 
"In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and sadness that we lost half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we [would] have [in our state] 400,000 Arabs."
sounds like co existance huh?

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On February 7th, 1948, while addressing the Mapai Council he responded to a remark that the "Jews have no land in the Jerusalem corridor" with the following:
 
"The war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." 34
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Ben-Gurion addressing the Zionist Action Committee on April 6th 1948, just a few days before the implementation of Plan Dalet which signaled the official Zionist offensive against the Palestinians:
 
"We will not be able to win the war if we do not, during the war, populate upper and lower, eastern and western Galilee, the Negev and Jerusalem area ..... I believe that war will also bring in its wake a great change in the distribution of Arab population." 36
 
Note the premeditated plan to occupy and ethically cleanse areas, such as Galilee and Jerusalem, which were not allotted to the "Jewish State" by the 1947 U.N. Partition plan. 37
Finally, it seems often hypocritical when on one hand many Israeli Zionists use UN GA partition plan as a pretext to legitimize "Israel's"  existence, and on the other hand they've rejected almost every other UN resolution since "Israel's" creation, chief among them U.N. GA resolution 194 which calls for the immediate Right of Return of all ethnically cleansed Palestinians to their homes, farms, plantations, businesses, banks, boats, buses, ... etc. To suit "Israel's" political agenda, Israeli Zionists have deliberately chosen to ignore most, if not all, UN resolutions, of course with the exception of withdrawing from occupied southern Lebanon in May 2000. Sadly, Israel has accepted the UN resolution to withdraw its occupation forces out of southern Lebanon not because it was influenced by the UN, U.S., or even European diplomatic pressure, but because it was compelled to do so by the heroic Lebanese resistance.

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In 1936 (soon after the outbreak of the Intifada I), Ben-Gurion wrote in his diary:
"The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Arabs] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn't matter whether or not their view is correct.... They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale .... they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ..... [Arabs are] fighting dispossession ... The fear is not of losing land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ..... By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement."100
 
In 1938, Ben-Gurion also stated against the backdrop of Intifada I:
"When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is ONLY half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." 101
i can get a ton more quotes which will go into the arab attacking forces (almost totally in areas not allocated to jews by the UN)

on the note of the actual topic tho the ruling of israels court to change the route of parts of the barrier is a step in the right direction, but further construction shud cease until all cases have been heard, and i also believe it shud be an international body who shud have the final say who arn't going to have any bias to either palestinians or israelis to come up with a work able solution.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2004, 07:47:06 AM by Don Rizzle »

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

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Re: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2004, 11:53:07 PM »
Actually the writer of the first article could've been more convincing if it wasn't for one thing that immediatly engages him with the anti-Jewish propoganda- defining Zionism as some kind of a Rasially hatefull philosophy. One of The few true things he notes however, is that it was based on creating a Jewish state based on a Jewish majority(at least it was one of it's directions- Zionism had many theories and viewes, it wasn't a single opinion ideology, just like today's Israel is-everyone wants peace but there are diffrences on how to achieve it), since it was the only way to make it democratic and Jewish at the same time(The Jewish state was declared to be a Democratic Jewish state), what is more interesting though is this, Ben Gurion, one of the first people to pioneer the Transfer idealogy is a prototype of today's left wingers, I'll run it by u again, he's the guy who created the ideology that lead Israel to Oslo a couple of decades later, Rabin and Perez as followers of Ben Gurion wanted to grant Palestinians with a state, their own state, striving to achieve Ben Gurions original goal, seperating Palestinians from Israel to support the idea of a Jewish majority on Israel's territory(including all territory under Israel's control), by preforming that exact" free willed transfer" . May I remind you that this was an idealogy widely excepted by the Palestinians on their side(to the public eye)? Of course that was not before they corrected the Palestinian Declaration by changing the paragraphs in which the Palestinian people dencline The Jewish State's right to exist at all. On the other hand the population of Israel that Objected this agreement all this time were of course the right wingers, whose idealogical forefathers at the times of Ben Gurion supported the Zionistic idea of a "bi-national state", and although  this theoretical bi-national state would've been granted a much bigger slice of territory, it couldn't have been Jewish and Democratic at the same time, and why?- because the Arab population would overweight, So it could be a bi-national democratic state or a Jewish "not so democratic" state.
All in all though, this article has little to do with our isue, since it's main arguement concerns only the Arab Citizents of Israel itself and not the vast Palestinian majority in the Palestinian Authority or even the territorial isue, Israel as it started it's way in 48 was sitting on a very small territory, Ben Gurion's transfer policy concerned the Palestinians that were sitting on Israel's original territory, those who could effect it's national character- If a Palestinian state would start it's existance the Arabs that  "occupy" legal Israeli territory would be pleasently asked to move their asses to their newfound state-this should sum it all up. The article you posted is pointless and is filled with arguemental propoganda, since some of the aspects the writer allegedly opposes are the basics to the concepts of Palestinian independence, and the democratical characteristics of both states. The main goal of your article is again to present Israel as a nazi-dectaroship inspired state (off topic statements like this one prove it: "which was primarily motivated by the fleeing European Jews from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany"), and to moraly juestefy terroristic millitant actions by Palestinians, quotes:
"they do so because they were the victims of such treatment">>(Actual transfer never was preformed)
"  it is human nature to respond to terror with terror and to racism with racism"
"The Muslim Arabs have their history to prove their tolerance towards their subjects">>(So now we're talking about history, The Jews have their history to prove Israel belonged to them from the times of the bible).


« Last Edit: July 01, 2004, 12:07:39 AM by I TO DA GEEZY »
We are all human beings isn't that a good enough reason for peace?
 

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Re: Bulldozers begin Ariel barrier in another land grab by Israel
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2004, 11:35:56 AM »
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"  it is human nature to respond to terror with terror and to racism with racism"
that statement is true its not their oppinion its just a fact. when applied to this conflict the mistreatment of palestinians have lead to a resistence of israeli occupation.

they are saying in the thousands of years it hasn't been a jewish state the arabs havn't mistreated the jews in the way the jews are to them today. and to base your who case on your ancestors with near untraceable family tree once owned that land do u really think they have a right to take it back now all these years later? we see the how the state of israel conducts its business maybe they had it right all those years ago, like i said before you should gotten part of germany.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 11:42:17 AM by Don Rizzle »

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?