Author Topic: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......  (Read 350 times)

mauzip

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2004, 07:23:14 PM »
^^that mistreatment happened even 10 years ago, maybe even still today
 

Thirteen

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2004, 09:29:51 PM »
I believe that they should be given government subsidized land, housing, etc... but I believe they should have to pay taxes.

i know some reservations had houses built for them but they burned them down
 

Thirteen

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2004, 09:35:08 PM »
So lets say somone stole 20$ from my great great grandfather. So later when im alive, a relative of that theif comes to me and says "heres 20$ that my great great grandfather stole from yours....."

Honestly do you think i'd give a shit about that....no. I have put myself in a currently living native american life. Its not like the government is blocking them from having normal lives, there not imprisoning them. They can live a normal life. They should get any shit extra.

Why not give blacks tax exemption. We made them slaves.
Why not give Japanese people tax exemption. We put them in camps.
Why not give iraqi americans tax exemption. We are killing iraqis in iraq right now.
Why not give vietnamese americans tax exemption. We killed tons of them in vietnam.

ON, and ON , and ON. What makes indians so special? Because hundreds of years ago we kicked them off their land? Big deal get over it.

And by the way. Thanx for the negative karma guys. I didnt know we had so many indians on this board. God cant give my opinion without people dissing me.

we don't give any of them breaks because there's still millions of them left alive...whens the last time you saw 5 indians hanging together?

honestly, i don't see what the deal is about letting them be tax exempt and have their own land.... there's probably less than 100,000 of them alive...
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2004, 09:35:59 PM »
So lets say somone stole 20$ from my great great grandfather. So later when im alive, a relative of that theif comes to me and says "heres 20$ that my great great grandfather stole from yours....."

Honestly do you think i'd give a shit about that....no. I have put myself in a currently living native american life. Its not like the government is blocking them from having normal lives, there not imprisoning them. They can live a normal life. They should get any shit extra.

Why not give blacks tax exemption. We made them slaves.
Why not give Japanese people tax exemption. We put them in camps.
Why not give iraqi americans tax exemption. We are killing iraqis in iraq right now.
Why not give vietnamese americans tax exemption. We killed tons of them in vietnam.

ON, and ON , and ON. What makes indians so special? Because hundreds of years ago we kicked them off their land? Big deal get over it.

And by the way. Thanx for the negative karma guys. I didnt know we had so many indians on this board. God cant give my opinion without people dissing me.

why in the blue hell would I give you negative karma. I don't give negative karma, to me it's pointless. I am a positive person that only gives props. I am only trying to talk to you about a situation. Now let me answer your post.

Why not give blacks tax exemption. We made them slaves.
No, they were promised a lot of things, but never got it. Tax exemptions though is completely different than what was promised but never given to Natives.
Why not give Japanese people tax exemption. We put them in camps.
awww but we did give the people in camps money to make up for our mistake. Basically how slavery reperations argument came about. Once the U.S. gave teh Japanese money, then blacks started asking for money with slavery. Back then it was a justified argument because the effects of slavery was still felt in the black community, and racism was running wild.
Why not give iraqi americans tax exemption. We are killing iraqis in iraq right now.
We are at war with Iraqis. This happens through out history
Why not give vietnamese americans tax exemption. We killed tons of them in vietnam.
That was a war. Though we did take many Vietnamese into our country, and gave them refugee money to start a new life here.

This is the main reason why we get tax exempts, NATIVES LIVE IN RESERVATION IN THEIR OWN LITTLE COUNTRIES. Peep game. Each reservation is treated like it's own country. Many years ago it was done by the U.S. to keep the Natives weak. If they are in little reservations, as their own country, then they cannot join together and fight back against the U.S. It was perfect, divide and conquer. They gave the Natives their own little nations, completely sovereign from the rest of the country. Back then, they left the Natives in the most unfertal, unwanted land they can find. To be human, they gave the Natives food, so they can live, and threaten the life of any Native willing to leave. Here's the funny part though. About 15 years ago, in California, one Native reservation on the way to Las Vegas thought that since they have their own rules, why don't they legalize gambling, so that when people are on their way to Vegas, they see a casino in California, and get some business. It was a way so that the Natives can start supporting ourselves. We didn't know we'd make this much money. But it's a way so that we can finally have an income in our own little tribes, technically little nations, and support ourselves. We are proud people, many natives hated the fact that the U.S. gave us our food, and took our land and treated us like babies because we couldn't we couldn't take care of ourselves. Our men in the reservation were ruined, our kids became out of control, we as a people were reduced to being a depended on U.S. society. After over 500 years of struggle against the white man, we finally have a way to take care of ourselves, support our people, build better schools on our reservation, and allow our people to live a better life. We are our own little country, remember that. Other than the aid that the U.S. gives us, we don't get much from tax money. Our roads for years were messed up, our schools were shitty, our houses were shacks. It was our money made from casinos that paid for bettering our live. So We take care of ourselves, not the U.S., so why should a reservation pay taxes. After being treated like shit for hundreds of years, we finally find a way to support ourselves, and you want that too. Fuck that!
 

DAYUM

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2004, 09:39:36 PM »
props to m-dogg
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2004, 09:40:32 PM »
oh, and one more thing, the tax exempt, from my life experence is only for Natives on the reservation. Those living in mainstream U.S. life still pay taxes. I know my grandma did, and she's a full blood. It might be though that she had no tribe to be a part of, I am not completely sure. But she is full blooded Native, and she had to pay taxes her whole life.
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2004, 09:49:57 PM »
^
Lost Angel is spitting real knowledge here... if i could give props i would... props nonetheless  :cheers:
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2004, 10:34:04 PM »
i think the idea of owning casinos was nice but there's a lot of shady bullshit going one where some indian "leaders" open these casinos and make mad profits and live in mansions in lake tahoe but neglect to share this money with the people under there tribes who live in clay huts with one strand of wire that brings in electricity 30 minutes out of the day.

that's why i say fuck it...why would i want to live on a reservation and live seperated from the advanced world...i think it's great to know your culture and all but seriously if you look through the history of time no one culture is set forever. cultures adapt to others and live in new cultures comprised of combinations of older ones....that's why if i was a full blooded native american i'd live my life the same as any other american....i'd be in touch with my culture but i wouldn't feel the need to go get me a teepee and hunt deer and name my kids running kit fox and shit.

in all honesty i feel bad for the iindians' stuggle when they lost america to the europeaners but seriously  how do you think many of those tribes came to power? by taking land from other tribes. the aztecs did  it and so did the mayans. then the europeans came over and did the same, it's a circle. one day some nation in the future will come and take over/liberate america. God didn't just say let there be asia and put all the asians in one continent then let there be Europe and put all the whites on the other then way the fuck out in the americas he said let there be Cheif Strong wolf in N. Dakota and the Aztecs in mexico.


like i said earlier there's no wrong or right answer when talking about this shit

it's bad that the indians got pumped with no vaseline.....but it was bound to happen.


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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2004, 11:47:43 PM »
^
Lost Angel is spitting real knowledge here... if i could give props i would... props nonetheless  :cheers:

Thats truth
 

ecrazy

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2004, 12:44:44 AM »
I support Native Americans, Especially the Morongo Tribe, Seeing as i wasted almost 2 paychecks @ their Casino.....
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2004, 01:29:51 AM »
I support Native Americans, Especially the Morongo Tribe, Seeing as i wasted almost 2 paychecks @ their Casino.....

LMAO. Yo that is one dope casino. I had so much fun there on my 18th birthday.
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2004, 09:06:16 AM »
Life isn't fair. You mad? ::)

What are your views on them and the special treatment they get?

unfair. Let's look at it this way, when a white person wants to die, they have to go out there way and find someone to kill them. We just had it where the white man came to us and killed us all. Frankly, I think we got the better end of it. I mean, who needs a whole tribe of people that we had, I mean the 19 people of my tribe still alive, that's plenty of people to carry on our traditions once held by hundreds of thousands.

Do you think it's right that they get to live on Reserves where there is basically no laws, they don't pay taxes and get tons of free stuff.

The reservation is great. (I've actually been to reservations many many times) I mean, before casinos, there was a bunch of beat up old houses out in the middle of the desert. I mean, lets face it, the white men lost out, they forced into some great land. I heard stories that when the old natives tried to grow on the reservations, they couldn't grow a damn thing. Then check this out, when they tried to leave, the military was sent to put them back in, or kill them, whichever was easier. Of course the government kick down free food, and it was the best food you can get. I remember as a kid going to visit my mom's people in the reservation, and they had powdered milk, government cheese, and some really old pasta, and basically I thought it was cool because it was all government surplus food. God damn those casino, now natives can buy there own food. I mean, now I go there and the shacks are replaced by nice houses, and you see the natives have gained weight. I always thought we were suppose to stay skinny. Whoever heard of a chunky native. If no one in this country has a weight problem, then why should the natives. And why did we agree to be a solvergn nation. I mean, many years ago, they said we had freedoms in our tribes, as long as we stayed in them. I figure that they should have just ruled us in our own tribes too. Hell, they killed us and forced us to stay in the most unfertal land in this country, the least they could have done is took away our freedoms to be our own people. But I mean, the United States has given us such a special treatment.
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2004, 09:14:14 AM »
Yeah, Cortez and the gang should of just finished the job IMO. Forgive my comments I just am not a big fan of Natives.

So lets say somone stole 20$ from my great great grandfather. So later when im alive, a relative of that theif comes to me and says "heres 20$ that my great great grandfather stole from yours....."

Honestly do you think i'd give a shit about that....no. I have put myself in a currently living native american life. Its not like the government is blocking them from having normal lives, there not imprisoning them. They can live a normal life. They should get any shit extra.

Why not give blacks tax exemption. We made them slaves.
Why not give Japanese people tax exemption. We put them in camps.
Why not give iraqi americans tax exemption. We are killing iraqis in iraq right now.
Why not give vietnamese americans tax exemption. We killed tons of them in vietnam.

ON, and ON , and ON. What makes indians so special? Because hundreds of years ago we kicked them off their land? Big deal get over it.

And by the way. Thanx for the negative karma guys. I didnt know we had so many indians on this board. God cant give my opinion without people dissing me.

why in the blue hell would I give you negative karma. I don't give negative karma, to me it's pointless. I am a positive person that only gives props. I am only trying to talk to you about a situation. Now let me answer your post.

Why not give blacks tax exemption. We made them slaves.
No, they were promised a lot of things, but never got it. Tax exemptions though is completely different than what was promised but never given to Natives.
Why not give Japanese people tax exemption. We put them in camps.
awww but we did give the people in camps money to make up for our mistake. Basically how slavery reperations argument came about. Once the U.S. gave teh Japanese money, then blacks started asking for money with slavery. Back then it was a justified argument because the effects of slavery was still felt in the black community, and racism was running wild.
Why not give iraqi americans tax exemption. We are killing iraqis in iraq right now.
We are at war with Iraqis. This happens through out history
Why not give vietnamese americans tax exemption. We killed tons of them in vietnam.
That was a war. Though we did take many Vietnamese into our country, and gave them refugee money to start a new life here.

This is the main reason why we get tax exempts, NATIVES LIVE IN RESERVATION IN THEIR OWN LITTLE COUNTRIES. Peep game. Each reservation is treated like it's own country. Many years ago it was done by the U.S. to keep the Natives weak. If they are in little reservations, as their own country, then they cannot join together and fight back against the U.S. It was perfect, divide and conquer. They gave the Natives their own little nations, completely sovereign from the rest of the country. Back then, they left the Natives in the most unfertal, unwanted land they can find. To be human, they gave the Natives food, so they can live, and threaten the life of any Native willing to leave. Here's the funny part though. About 15 years ago, in California, one Native reservation on the way to Las Vegas thought that since they have their own rules, why don't they legalize gambling, so that when people are on their way to Vegas, they see a casino in California, and get some business. It was a way so that the Natives can start supporting ourselves. We didn't know we'd make this much money. But it's a way so that we can finally have an income in our own little tribes, technically little nations, and support ourselves. We are proud people, many natives hated the fact that the U.S. gave us our food, and took our land and treated us like babies because we couldn't we couldn't take care of ourselves. Our men in the reservation were ruined, our kids became out of control, we as a people were reduced to being a depended on U.S. society. After over 500 years of struggle against the white man, we finally have a way to take care of ourselves, support our people, build better schools on our reservation, and allow our people to live a better life. We are our own little country, remember that. Other than the aid that the U.S. gives us, we don't get much from tax money. Our roads for years were messed up, our schools were shitty, our houses were shacks. It was our money made from casinos that paid for bettering our live. So We take care of ourselves, not the U.S., so why should a reservation pay taxes. After being treated like shit for hundreds of years, we finally find a way to support ourselves, and you want that too. Fuck that!
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2004, 10:26:36 AM »
^^^

Native Americans have been getting screwed from the day Columbus stepped foot on America when his dumb ass thought it was India.  I agree... peeps need to stop calling them Indians.  Fuck Columbus... he massacred, pilaged, raped an entire people and he gets his own bitch ass holiday... fuck that fool.   >:(




So you're telling me that if you were on that boat in 1492 that you would've known that it wasn't India? Columbus like every other explorer was a merciless thug, but he wasn't dumb. A lot of the massacre has to be blamed on the monsters that came with him on the boats, not that Columbus is innocent.
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2004, 10:45:03 AM »
^
I agree with you, but I don't agree with having a holiday in his honor because he "discovered" America... Peeps were already here!
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2004, 02:47:11 PM »
^
I agree with you, but I don't agree with having a holiday in his honor because he "discovered" America... Peeps were already here!

I don't care for the holiday either way, but he did discover America for the Europeans, as far as the story goes. Europeans would have figured out the world was round after the enlightenment any way, but Columbus was the first to proclaim it in Europe at that time, and he is credited for his idea.
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2004, 03:20:16 PM »
^^^

Native Americans have been getting screwed from the day Columbus stepped foot on America when his dumb ass thought it was India.  I agree... peeps need to stop calling them Indians.  Fuck Columbus... he massacred, pilaged, raped an entire people and he gets his own bitch ass holiday... fuck that fool.   >:(



Yeah, because Indians had so much going for them before he came? Columbus brought civilization to the West.
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2004, 03:46:33 PM »
^
I agree with you, but I don't agree with having a holiday in his honor because he "discovered" America... Peeps were already here!

I don't care for the holiday either way, but he did discover America for the Europeans, as far as the story goes. Europeans would have figured out the world was round after the enlightenment any way, but Columbus was the first to proclaim it in Europe at that time, and he is credited for his idea.

first off, the Greeks discovered the world was round. Any European that thought the world was flat was more than likely a backwoods country European. The only problem was that people were afriad to travel around the world, for fear of the unknown. There was rumored to be monsters and whatnot. Also, how big the world was, was also misjudged. They thought that if the world was round, it was only the world that they knew. They did not think that there was room for a whole 'nother world. To even further the thought of Columbus not discovering America, even for the Europeans, Vikings have been trading with Natives in Canada for hundreds of years before Columbus. Wit Columbue though, is his sailing came to find a short cut to India, and was funded by the newly freed Spain. Spain had been under Moore rule for 700 years, and was freed in 1492. Their first big mission was to find a short cut to India.

Quote
Yeah, because Indians had so much going for them before he came? Columbus brought civilization to the West.

you ever heard of the great Empires of the Americas. Inca, Mexica, and Mayan. Basically these Empires were great societies, and they were all advanced in math. The Mexica (Aztec) were advanced in math, holding many secrets that European scholors had been looking for to complete calculus, and other advanced math. The Inca build great buildings in the mountains, and were on their way to having a really advanced Empire, and the Mayan Empire had many great temples and buildings as well. The Iroquois did not have an empire, in fact they had a government very simular to the one the United States has now, mainly because the U.S. took many ideas from the Iroquois to set up their democracy, mainly dealing the with states, and how each state is ran, yet their is a central federal government. The Iroquois were another great society, that with time would have produced many great things. All these tribes had great potental. So don't believe what you see on TV, we were advanced.

Quote
Yeah, Cortez and the gang should of just finished the job IMO. Forgive my comments I just am not a big fan of Natives.
you don't have to be. Many white people, even to this day aren't, and they are seen as heros. John Wayne hated Natives, and real life heros that hate indians include Andrew Jackson, General Custer, almost every U.S. settler that moved west, and every European conquor who wanted to gain riches for his country.
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2004, 05:08:54 PM »
Quote
first off, the Greeks discovered the world was round. Any European that thought the world was flat was more than likely a backwoods country European. The only problem was that people were afriad to travel around the world, for fear of the unknown. There was rumored to be monsters and whatnot. Also, how big the world was, was also misjudged. They thought that if the world was round, it was only the world that they knew. They did not think that there was room for a whole 'nother world. To even further the thought of Columbus not discovering America, even for the Europeans, Vikings have been trading with Natives in Canada for hundreds of years before Columbus. Wit Columbue though, is his sailing came to find a short cut to India, and was funded by the newly freed Spain. Spain had been under Moore rule for 700 years, and was freed in 1492. Their first big mission was to find a short cut to India.

Spain wasnt newly "freed" in 1492 they just put the finishing touches on what was already a beatin "Al-Andulus".


Quote
you ever heard of the great Empires of the Americas. Inca, Mexica, and Mayan. Basically these Empires were great societies, and they were all advanced in math. The Mexica (Aztec) were advanced in math, holding many secrets that European scholors had been looking for to complete calculus, and other advanced math. The Inca build great buildings in the mountains, and were on their way to having a really advanced Empire, and the Mayan Empire had many great temples and buildings as well. The Iroquois did not have an empire, in fact they had a government very simular to the one the United States has now, mainly because the U.S. took many ideas from the Iroquois to set up their democracy, mainly dealing the with states, and how each state is ran, yet their is a central federal government. The Iroquois were another great society, that with time would have produced many great things. All these tribes had great potental. So don't believe what you see on TV, we were advanced.

Ummm no.. they were wayyyy behind the europeans in technology. I guess some of their concepts of government were semi-advanced but they certainly didn't put any of their ideas to good use.


Quote
you don't have to be. Many white people, even to this day aren't, and they are seen as heros. John Wayne hated Natives, and real life heros that hate indians include Andrew Jackson, General Custer, almost every U.S. settler that moved west, and every European conquor who wanted to gain riches for his country.

OK


 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2004, 05:31:12 PM »


Quote
you ever heard of the great Empires of the Americas. Inca, Mexica, and Mayan. Basically these Empires were great societies, and they were all advanced in math. The Mexica (Aztec) were advanced in math, holding many secrets that European scholors had been looking for to complete calculus, and other advanced math. The Inca build great buildings in the mountains, and were on their way to having a really advanced Empire, and the Mayan Empire had many great temples and buildings as well. The Iroquois did not have an empire, in fact they had a government very simular to the one the United States has now, mainly because the U.S. took many ideas from the Iroquois to set up their democracy, mainly dealing the with states, and how each state is ran, yet their is a central federal government. The Iroquois were another great society, that with time would have produced many great things. All these tribes had great potental. So don't believe what you see on TV, we were advanced.

Ummm no.. they were wayyyy behind the europeans in technology. I guess some of their concepts of government were semi-advanced but they certainly didn't put any of their ideas to good use.



When Spanish troops first saw the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan in 1519, they could not believe their eyes. The beautiful city was built on an island in the middle of Lake Texcoco and was linked to the mountainous mainland by raised roads. To the soldiers, the towers, temples, and lakes in Tenochtitlan must have seemed like something from a dream. As shown in the illustration below, the Aztec temples were built in the form of pyramids.



The city of Tenochtitlan, which was on the site of present-day Mexico city, was larger than any in Spain. Its markets were visited by 50,000 customers each day. The markets' stores were bulging with the rich products of the advanced Aztec civilization. A court of judges remained in session at the markets to peacefully settle disputes that arose between buyers and sellers.

To help keep accurate accounts for their extensive commerce, the Aztec had developed an efficient system of numerals and arithmetic. Aztec numerals were of two types. For commercial uses, the numerals were made up of dots, vertical strokes, and a zero symbol. For other occasions, more decorative numerals were used. Although the concepts of place value and a number base of 20 had been borrowed from the earlier Maya and Olmec Native Americans, the numerals were distinctly Aztec. For example, a small ear of corn was used for the zero symbol. Corn, or maize, was the material base of most Central American civilizations. Its use as the zero symbol shows how important the concept was to the Aztec.

Among the applications of Aztec mathematics, the records that registered land ownership were of special importance. Land records gave the boundaries, the area, and the market value of property. The Aztec government used these records to calculate the amount of tax that the owners had to pay.

Recently, comparisons were made between the Aztec land records and records of the same farms that were drawn up by the Spanish conquerors. Although Spain was a leader in European science and mathematics, the Aztec records were more accurate. This may be because the Aztec unit of area, the square quahuitl, was reliable and did not change from farm to farm. The caballeria, the Spanish unit of area, varied considerably, perhaps for political purposes. In addition, perhaps the Aztec had more practice in planning cities and building pyramids that required accurate measurements.

 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2004, 05:35:11 PM »
Impressive but when I think it took 200 men to conquer all that it just seems... like a waste.
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2004, 05:46:05 PM »
^
I agree with you, but I don't agree with having a holiday in his honor because he "discovered" America... Peeps were already here!

I don't care for the holiday either way, but he did discover America for the Europeans, as far as the story goes. Europeans would have figured out the world was round after the enlightenment any way, but Columbus was the first to proclaim it in Europe at that time, and he is credited for his idea.

first off, the Greeks discovered the world was round. Any European that thought the world was flat was more than likely a backwoods country European. The only problem was that people were afriad to travel around the world, for fear of the unknown. There was rumored to be monsters and whatnot. Also, how big the world was, was also misjudged. They thought that if the world was round, it was only the world that they knew. They did not think that there was room for a whole 'nother world. To even further the thought of Columbus not discovering America, even for the Europeans, Vikings have been trading with Natives in Canada for hundreds of years before Columbus. Wit Columbue though, is his sailing came to find a short cut to India, and was funded by the newly freed Spain. Spain had been under Moore rule for 700 years, and was freed in 1492. Their first big mission was to find a short cut to India.

Yeah I know all about the Greeks, I am one. I never get to listen to anything else but the Greeks this, the Greeks that. What I don't get is that the word Greek is a deragatory term made up by the Romans after they conquered Greece (or the Hellenic Union, what ever you prefer). To call a me a Greek isn't much different than calling a black guy a nigger. Well anyway, I just thought it was funny that Greeks accept it with out any type of arguments. I guess after 2000 years of slavery, from one ruler to another, they got used to it.

As for your statement. Greek culture and studies were not present in the 1400s. The Enlightenment didn't happen yet, and the Greek documents were not yet presented to Spain, England, or France. The Greek that actually measured the circumference of the Earth, I think his name was Eratosthenes, 39,300 km is what he got, the actual number is 40,075.16 km. That's pretty close when using shadows and light, and a hell of a mathematical mathod. To be only 700 kms off is amazing. But this was not known to the Europeans. You must remember that during his time The Muslims still had rule over all the Greek land and documents.  Greece didn't actually become liberated until the 1800s, but the Europeans gained access to the Greek documents before that. Rome had all that knowledge, but it was taken over too, mid first milenium, and when the Frankish Kings and such took over Rome,they didn't bother keeping around any educational material. You can only imagine how much further Science and Math would be today, if it didn't take a 1000 year break in the western world. The bottom line is, it was not comon knowlegde to Europeans that the worl was round. Remember, these were the dark ages.
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2004, 06:08:26 PM »
^
I agree with you, but I don't agree with having a holiday in his honor because he "discovered" America... Peeps were already here!

I don't care for the holiday either way, but he did discover America for the Europeans, as far as the story goes. Europeans would have figured out the world was round after the enlightenment any way, but Columbus was the first to proclaim it in Europe at that time, and he is credited for his idea.

first off, the Greeks discovered the world was round. Any European that thought the world was flat was more than likely a backwoods country European. The only problem was that people were afriad to travel around the world, for fear of the unknown. There was rumored to be monsters and whatnot. Also, how big the world was, was also misjudged. They thought that if the world was round, it was only the world that they knew. They did not think that there was room for a whole 'nother world. To even further the thought of Columbus not discovering America, even for the Europeans, Vikings have been trading with Natives in Canada for hundreds of years before Columbus. Wit Columbue though, is his sailing came to find a short cut to India, and was funded by the newly freed Spain. Spain had been under Moore rule for 700 years, and was freed in 1492. Their first big mission was to find a short cut to India.

Yeah I know all about the Greeks, I am one. I never get to listen to anything else but the Greeks this, the Greeks that. What I don't get is that the word Greek is a deragatory term made up by the Romans after they conquered Greece (or the Hellenic Union, what ever you prefer). To call a me a Greek isn't much different than calling a black guy a nigger. Well anyway, I just thought it was funny that Greeks accept it with out any type of arguments. I guess after 2000 years of slavery, from one ruler to another, they got used to it.

As for your statement. Greek culture and studies were not present in the 1400s. The Enlightenment didn't happen yet, and the Greek documents were not yet presented to Spain, England, or France. The Greek that actually measured the circumference of the Earth, I think his name was Eratosthenes, 39,300 km is what he got, the actual number is 40,075.16 km. That's pretty close when using shadows and light, and a hell of a mathematical mathod. To be only 700 kms off is amazing. But this was not known to the Europeans. You must remember that during his time The Muslims still had rule over all the Greek land and documents.  Greece didn't actually become liberated until the 1800s, but the Europeans gained access to the Greek documents before that. Rome had all that knowledge, but it was taken over too, mid first milenium, and when the Frankish Kings and such took over Rome,they didn't bother keeping around any educational material. You can only imagine how much further Science and Math would be today, if it didn't take a 1000 year break in the western world. The bottom line is, it was not comon knowlegde to Europeans that the worl was round. Remember, these were the dark ages.


Yeah i didn't think it was common knowledge the world was round but I wasn't 100% sure so I let it go. I didn't know that about the word "greek" though thats some good knowledge you kickin out. My Fiancees Father is "greek" she always says "Selonic" though. She didnt even understand the word greek initially I thought she was sayin she was part Slavonic! She is actually Arabic/Turkish and her Father is Selonic.
 

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2004, 07:26:51 PM »
The word the Romans used was "Greco" or "Greko". You know like in Greco-Roman wrestling. Not many people consider it disrespectfu today because it was so long ago, and by the time Greeks got out of that slavery they were right into another one. But the other slave masters didn't make fun of their name, they put down their God, and I guess the Greeks cared more about Jesus than a name. Greece was never really a unified country any way. The Alexander period didn't last that long, before that it was all states and provinces, and after Alexander it was enslaved. A guy was Athenian, or Spartan. The name of the land was, in Greek is pronounced, "Elatha". The period was called th Hellenistic Period, and a Greek was called a Hellene (in Greek "Elinas"). These words are preset even today. There is no word in Greek that sounds like or means Greece, or Greek.

 I've never head of the word "Selonic". You sure you didn't mean "Hellenic"?
 

tommyilromano

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Re: Native North Americans (Indains, First Nations or whatever).......
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2004, 07:34:37 PM »
I know Greco that is what I usually call Greeks(I mean no offense) I am Italian. My girlfriend speaks Turkish and Arabic(and of course english) so it might be Greek in one of those languages I will ask when I see her later today(probably turkish). Hellonics  ;) are cool in my book. BTW- We are gonna be vacationing to Rhodes in a couple of months you have any suggestions on where to visit?