100,000 Civilians Deaths Since 2003 US Invasion

[Ant]

Antonio, I agree the results may be flawed, but I also believe there is an incentive for the US to understate the civilian death toll.  Either way, there have been a large number of civilian casualties, counted in the tens of thousands.  Additionally, there are thousands who are now homeless, and thousands with serious life altering injuries (i.e. people with missing limbs, shrapnel embedded in their body, paralysis, permanent scarring, etc.)  

This post was meant to highlight the cost of war.  3000 Americans were killed sept. 11th, many of them were from manhattan, a city that voted 90-10 against Bush, and strongly opposes the Iraq war.  

You stated "we went to Iraq to liberate the Iraqis."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  We went to war because we feared Iraq had WMD, and ties to terrorism.  The final analysis proved it had neither.  Now we are fighting for the freedom of a people who are violently opposing our occupation.  A new breed of Iraqi politicians have been given power, and not surprisingly have thanked the US for their newly granted authority, but their support is hardly conclusive evidence that we are doing the right thing in Iraq.  

It is not right nor is it fair to force a system of government on people, by killing their citizens, and proclaiming yourself in the right.  If the objective is to help the iraqi people establish a new form of government that form of government should be their own choice.  The US was not established by a 3rd party fighting for our freedom.  We choose our freedom and fought for it ourselves.  In Iraq, we made a miscalculation, and disguised it by calling it a fight for freedom.  But how can you say you are fighting for the people, when you are killing them to achieve an objective that was determined by us not them?  

In the end I can only say that this is not a simple situation with simple answers, and you should be cautious before you quickly jump to a conclusion that says  we are always in the right because our government says so.  Its not for you or me to determine whether, and how the Iraqis, or any group of people earn their freedom.  It is not for you or me to call them cowards for choosing another way of life.  The Iraqis are fighting for their way of life. You can see it daily.  They are fighting against the coalition.  They are fighting against the US because thousands of their family members have been killed by US bombs, there houses have been destroyed, and their children have died because of our actions.  If you cannot understand why this is the case, simply consider your actions had your brother been killed by a foreign nation occupying your country and arrogantly telling you they are there to help you when everyone knows they were there because of WMD that never existed. 
  

[Rain]

1. In the list you should add all the civils (journalists, doctors, etc..) killed by terrorists, and the death of those ones is as brutal and wrong as the death of all the other "innocent" Iraqi people. Cause all i read here is that Americans are bombing innocents. But guess what? Terrorists are doing the same! They bombed the Twin Towers, and there were no soldiers in it (am i wrong?). They boicotted airplanes using innocent people like "bombs". They've bombed Italian Carabinieri, and they were there to help building streets and helping doctors in the Badgad hospitals. They've bombed Red Cross. They've bombed UN. They've bombed Iraqi police. They've killed the most important political Iraqi who were about to instaure Democracy in Iraq. They've killed journalists and beheaded people live on tv. So please, when you make topics like this one, always remember that. Cause if you dont, you only say a small part of the story. Dont reply with: "They had to defend themselves", cause i didnt quote the deaths of soldiers, but the deaths of innocent people who wasnt fighting a war. Just like the "poor" Iraqi citizen arent.

hang on - r u just arguing that there is no difference between the Terrorists and the American government?

It sounds like you're trying to say that because terrorists have killed innocent people - its alright for the american government to kill innocent people as well. i mean you can't be serious can you? If the America is trying to wage this war on terror - how in world does arguing that they are doing the same thing as terrorists help their case?

[7even]

1. In the list you should add all the civils (journalists, doctors, etc..) killed by terrorists, and the death of those ones is as brutal and wrong as the death of all the other "innocent" Iraqi people. Cause all i read here is that Americans are bombing innocents. But guess what? Terrorists are doing the same! They bombed the Twin Towers, and there were no soldiers in it (am i wrong?). They boicotted airplanes using innocent people like "bombs". They've bombed Italian Carabinieri, and they were there to help building streets and helping doctors in the Badgad hospitals. They've bombed Red Cross. They've bombed UN. They've bombed Iraqi police. They've killed the most important political Iraqi who were about to instaure Democracy in Iraq. They've killed journalists and beheaded people live on tv. So please, when you make topics like this one, always remember that. Cause if you dont, you only say a small part of the story. Dont reply with: "They had to defend themselves", cause i didnt quote the deaths of soldiers, but the deaths of innocent people who wasnt fighting a war. Just like the "poor" Iraqi citizen arent.

hang on - r u just arguing that there is no difference between the Terrorists and the American government?

It sounds like you're trying to say that because terrorists have killed innocent people - its alright for the american government to kill innocent people as well. i mean you can't be serious can you? If the America is trying to wage this war on terror - how in world does arguing that they are doing the same thing as terrorists help their case?

LoL, this is great.

[*Jamal*]

A boy recovers in a Fallujah hospital after a U.S. airstrike in Fallujah, Iraq Saturday, Nov. 6, 2004, which killed his father, according to hospital officials. U.S. jets pounded Fallujah early Saturday in the heaviest airstrikes in six months, including five 500-pound bombs dropped on insurgent targets.

 

[King Tech Quadafi]

Hey pussies , cowards, rednecks, stupid morons, republicans etc

Guess what the casualty figures were from the first Gulf War? Dont know? Thats cuz they remain a secret.

So you understand why Tech thinks of the majority of you guys as monkeys when you debate the scientific nature of this poll.

[acbaylove]

Antonio, I agree the results may be flawed, but I also believe there is an incentive for the US to understate the civilian death toll.  Either way, there have been a large number of civilian casualties, counted in the tens of thousands.  Additionally, there are thousands who are now homeless, and thousands with serious life altering injuries (i.e. people with missing limbs, shrapnel embedded in their body, paralysis, permanent scarring, etc.). This post was meant to highlight the cost of war.  3000 Americans were killed sept. 11th, many of them were from manhattan, a city that voted 90-10 against Bush, and strongly opposes the Iraq war.

Nothing to reply.

You stated "we went to Iraq to liberate the Iraqis."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  We went to war because we feared Iraq had WMD, and ties to terrorism.  The final analysis proved it had neither.  Now we are fighting for the freedom of a people who are violently opposing our occupation.  A new breed of Iraqi politicians have been given power, and not surprisingly have thanked the US for their newly granted authority, but their support is hardly conclusive evidence that we are doing the right thing in Iraq.

Hold on man. I never said that. Plus "we" is not something i can say, since i didnt go to war, and my nation, Italy, didnt fight the war. I reported the main reason Bush is giving right now why his troops are there, and it's because he wants Iraq to have democratic elections. That's Bush, not Antonio thinking that. I never talked about the reasons i think USA fought this war, and IF this war was/is right or wrong imo. Personally i think this war was a mistaken ("was", not "is". But we can discuss about this difference in another topic).

It is not right nor is it fair to force a system of government on people, by killing their citizens, and proclaiming yourself in the right.  If the objective is to help the iraqi people establish a new form of government that form of government should be their own choice.

Here i disagree. And i can say that cause i'm Italian, and i've indirectly lived it with Benito Mussolini and fascism, for 22 years. Everydody here wanted democratic elections. Everybody here didnt want the fascism. But it's not easy to destroy a corrupted system when they kill all the oppositors, and you really cant do nothing about it. And if you open your mouth, your family gets incarcerated. In the first moments i thought the same exact thing you wrote: "If they dont want Saddam they can make a revolution, or shit like that". But then i talked about it with my grandfather (who lived when Mussolini was the "duce"), and he made me look dumb and "so" young, talking about shit i dont even know. Dont make the same mistake i made. "Should be their own choice"? Well, do you honestly think they preferred Saddam to democratic elections? C'mon..

The US was not established by a 3rd party fighting for our freedom.  We choose our freedom and fought for it ourselves.  In Iraq, we made a miscalculation, and disguised it by calling it a fight for freedom.  But how can you say you are fighting for the people, when you are killing them to achieve an objective that was determined by us not them?

Simply because Saddam is in jail, and in jan they'll hopefully have free elections. Obviously Americans aint fighting against common people, they are fighting against resistence, fanatics and terrorists. Tragically, it's still a war, and when you launch a bomb from an airplane, that bomb can kill innocent people. And a lot of innocent people are dying. But c'mon, they aint fighting the same guys they wanna help, that's too deep as a provocation. I understand it, but i disagree.

In the end I can only say that this is not a simple situation with simple answers, and you should be cautious before you quickly jump to a conclusion that says  we are always in the right because our government says so.

Once again, it's YOUR government, and i aint saying this war is right. You got it wrong.

Its not for you or me to determine whether, and how the Iraqis, or any group of people earn their freedom.  It is not for you or me to call them cowards for choosing another way of life.  The Iraqis are fighting for their way of life. You can see it daily.  They are fighting against the coalition.  They are fighting against the US because thousands of their family members have been killed by US bombs, there houses have been destroyed, and their children have died because of our actions.  If you cannot understand why this is the case, simply consider your actions had your brother been killed by a foreign nation occupying your country and arrogantly telling you they are there to help you when everyone knows they were there because of WMD that never existed.

Man, Iraqi aint fighting AGAINST Americans. If you say so, you are manipulating the truth (or you got manipulated). Iraqi are fighting WITH Americans to have free elections. I'm Italian, and i can say Iraqi loves us, we work with them building streets, helping Iraqi Police, helping their doctors, and we never used a single bullet against them. You are making some confusion between common people, Iraqi politicians, fanatics of Allah or Saddam, the resistence and the terrorists. They aint all the same things. The last 3 are against USA. Terrorists, fanatics of Saddam and resistence should go to jail.

[acbaylove]

1. In the list you should add all the civils (journalists, doctors, etc..) killed by terrorists, and the death of those ones is as brutal and wrong as the death of all the other "innocent" Iraqi people. Cause all i read here is that Americans are bombing innocents. But guess what? Terrorists are doing the same! They bombed the Twin Towers, and there were no soldiers in it (am i wrong?). They boicotted airplanes using innocent people like "bombs". They've bombed Italian Carabinieri, and they were there to help building streets and helping doctors in the Badgad hospitals. They've bombed Red Cross. They've bombed UN. They've bombed Iraqi police. They've killed the most important political Iraqi who were about to instaure Democracy in Iraq. They've killed journalists and beheaded people live on tv. So please, when you make topics like this one, always remember that. Cause if you dont, you only say a small part of the story. Dont reply with: "They had to defend themselves", cause i didnt quote the deaths of soldiers, but the deaths of innocent people who wasnt fighting a war. Just like the "poor" Iraqi citizen arent.

hang on - r u just arguing that there is no difference between the Terrorists and the American government?

It sounds like you're trying to say that because terrorists have killed innocent people - its alright for the american government to kill innocent people as well. i mean you can't be serious can you? If the America is trying to wage this war on terror - how in world does arguing that they are doing the same thing as terrorists help their case?

Where did i say that? I NEVER said there's no difference between the terrorists (why "T"errorists?) and the American Government (why "g"overnment?). I simply remembered that those terrorists kills innocent people too. It's not a comparsion, and i never said it's right for USA to take a revenge or to kill other people in return. To kill someone is ALWAYS wrong. I was talking about the poll, not about political aspects of the war. Dont get it wrong. What i mean is that if you wanna make a complete poll, you should consider (read the first words of point 1) all this innocent people dead by terrorist acts too, cause they aint "soldiers" fighting a war, but casualties of war. And sometimes they are real "heroes", like Italian doctors killed, etc..

[BuddenzNasir]

look at that fucking picture, thats those people EVERY MINUTE. and america couldnt give two fuckin shits, its sad.

[Doggystylin]

cuzzz its the land of the brave nigga shit man upz cuz we x out punk niccaz

[Thirteen]

look at that fucking picture, thats those people EVERY MINUTE. and america couldnt give two fuckin shits, its sad.

we're the reason the hospital thats treating that baby is still there, those coward iraqi bastards use hospitals as their hideouts and then cry when someone inside gets hurt...

america should start doing this, we'll strap homeless and elderly to our tanks and planes and shit so we can get some sympathy...this is was, that's not the first innocent baby to ge tinjured and it won't be the last

[Rain]

A boy recovers in a Fallujah hospital after a U.S. airstrike in Fallujah, Iraq Saturday, Nov. 6, 2004, which killed his father, according to hospital officials. U.S. jets pounded Fallujah early Saturday in the heaviest airstrikes in six months, including five 500-pound bombs dropped on insurgent targets.

 

that poor child - my hope goes out to him and every other innocent that has been affected by the American government, Iraq government and terrorist, in war or not, regardless.

it is my belief that pictures like this need to be seen every day by the public in the countries that have invaded Iraq (my country included) - just so they remember what their government is doing.

and to Antonio, i apologize, i just got the impression that you were looking to justify the death of innocents, but impressions are often wrong. I agree the innocents killed by terrorists needs to be polled as much as the innocents killed by the the American government or any other government for that matter, although not neccessarily in the same thread, since the two polls are unrelated.

also i dont know why i put a capital for terrorist and not for government - force of habit i guess - in essays ive always been taught not to type government with a capital, and im constantly seeing the word "terror" with a capital T in headlines i guess it just forced it ways into my habits.

[acbaylove]

look at that fucking picture, thats those people EVERY MINUTE. and america couldnt give two fuckin shits, its sad.

we're the reason the hospital thats treating that baby is still there, those coward iraqi bastards use hospitals as their hideouts and then cry when someone inside gets hurt...

america should start doing this, we'll strap homeless and elderly to our tanks and planes and shit so we can get some sympathy...this is was, that's not the first innocent baby to ge tinjured and it won't be the last

I dont wanna turn this topic into a pro-Italian thing, but the saddest thing is that in Badgdad there's only the ITALIAN Red Cross, since the International one runned away from Iraq. And that's ridiculous. How you wanna help Iraq if you dont even have the International Red Cross or UN there? Ok, they bombed them, but shit, they HAVE to stay there. UN talks talks talks, blames blames blames.. but where they at? International Red Cross continues to blames blames blames.. but where the fuck they at?

[acbaylove]

also i dont know why i put a capital for terrorist and not for government - force of habit i guess - in essays ive always been taught not to type government with a capital, and im constantly seeing the word "terror" with a capital T in headlines i guess it just forced it ways into my habits.

Yeah, i knew you didnt do it with a meaning.

[Don Rizzle]

how can any ordinary iraqi respect iraq's governments tough stance on terroists when the head of the governing council was a terrorist/cia collaborator himself who blew up a school bus full of children under saddam.

[acbaylove]

how can any ordinary iraqi respect iraq's governments tough stance on terroists when the head of the governing council was a terrorist/cia collaborator himself who blew up a school bus full of children under saddam.

They'll change him, if they dont trust him. Anyway you talked about "respect"? Man that's a deep word. 90% of the people who posts in this board doesnt respect their own President. Maybe more than 90%.