us marine kills wounded, unarmed man in a mosque in al-falluja

[Rampant]

I watched the video.  It had a squad of marines walking into a open room. There were 4(?) iraqi bodies laying on the ground (im guessing insurgents). Three marines walk up to an insurgent who is laying on the ground barley moving. They walk right up to him and then they kill him.

Ive seen tons of videos of this sort of thing happening, and even if i hadnt it still wouldnt shock me. This happens all the time in war, and from both sides. Do you honestly think the iraqis are nice to the americans if they capture one? I HIGHLY doubt it. But that comment is not to defend what the marines did.

[7even]

well it's a BIG difference whether between you to kill assholes who invaded your country and fuck everything up and killing harmless people you're currently "liberating"..

[Rampant]

well it's a BIG difference whether between you to kill assholes who invaded your country and fuck everything up and killing harmless people you're currently "liberating"..

You know my stance on the iraq war, i agree with you. Im not defending what the marines did. All im saying is that it happens in war, and from both sides. Nothing more nothing less.

[acbaylove]

If you are surprised about those things then you really dont kno shit about wars. When you are a soldier, and you are in the middle of a fight, you dont think "Wow, i'm here to help Iraqi! They are my friends...". You think "muthafuckaz i'mma kill y'all you sons of a bitch!". Cause you got trained and teached to hate. There's no "soldiers" if there's no hate. Hate is the key. In a war when your homie got shot in the head, and you see it, you are moved by the hate. You see an Iraqi and the first thing you wanna do is to kill him. No matter if he's strapped or not, no matter if he's innocent or not. Fuck it! You wanna kill him. This is how the war works. So stop being surprised about shit. Hate is the same thing who made them US soldiers torture Iraqi soldiers. Hate is the same thing who makes Iraqi kills innocents. And US soldiers kills innocents. Hate is the same thing who made them Israeli soldiers kill that unstrapped guy (it's famous, you know them pics?). Hate is the same thing who let UN soldiers (YES, UN soldiers) rape and kills a lot of WOMEN in Jugoslavia. YES, you've read it well. UN soldiers. RAPE AND KILL. For a soldier, there's no difference is he's fighting for a good cause or not. He's just fighting. Hating. Trying to survive. Trying to shoot first. US soldiers who went in Italy during the WWII to "save" us (read: to fight Nazi's and Fascist's) didnt even know why they were there. I mean there was been the D-DAY, they didnt need to "save" Italy no more. But still they were there. They died. They killed. Cause they soldiers. They had to do it. They were trained to do it. It's the same thing in Iraq. No matter if USA is right or not, soldiers are still there. FIGHTING. So please, give it up commenting on those shit. Like i said, it's a war. ALL THE WARS ARE WRONG.

[Ant]

And hate is the cause of the terrorist attacks and the cause of a second Bush Presidency.  The fact is, the problem isn't with the soldiers, so much as with the leadership who create an atmosphere of intolerance and put us in a situation where events like this one occur unnecessaryily.  Its not the fact that this occured, its that it was unnecssary and avoidable.  Abu Graib was entirely unavoidable, but poor leadership allowed it to exist.   

The issue is that these actions, which are unnecesary, are weakening national security, weakening the american economy, and weakening our integrity in the eyes of the rest of the world.  That is my issue, and while the US is not your country, it should be the issue on the minds of other americans.   

[acbaylove]

Hate is not a consequence of Bush's actions, and it's not the consequence of Saddam's actions. Hate is not the consequence of hate. Hate is inside all of us, since the Romans and the Egypts. Since we were monkeys. Hate is something who differentiate humans from animals. It's something we should face and deal with. When you are a soldier, you somehow are "allowed" to hate. You know what i mean? In the normal life, you dont want to kill other guys or torture them or beat them to death. Why? Cause you feel a voice inside of you who tells you not to hate. You think about the consequences (read: jail) or about your religion (read: sin) and you realize it's not something to do. You scared to do it. But when you a soldier and you are fighting a war, you can't hear that voice no more and there are no consequences if you do something bad. You feel the hate at his best. And you do atrocious things like this one. Like torturing people, like raping women. You loose your mind. You feel like God, doing whatever you want. So much that even if there's a camera, you think it's right to torture an Iraqi. Just cause he's an Iraqi. So much that even if there's a camera, you kill an unstrapped Iraqi. So much that you really belive you're doing "just your work". That's why the war is dangerous, and that's the proof that war is something who kills people's mind. When you really think that to kill other people is "just your job" you are fucked up. War is hate, remember that. Only love brings peace.

[*Jamal*]

^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit

[Javier]

^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit

I agreee

[Thirteen]

And hate is the cause of the terrorist attacks and the cause of a second Bush Presidency.  The fact is, the problem isn't with the soldiers, so much as with the leadership who create an atmosphere of intolerance and put us in a situation where events like this one occur unnecessaryily.  Its not the fact that this occured, its that it was unnecssary and avoidable.  Abu Graib was entirely unavoidable, but poor leadership allowed it to exist.   

The issue is that these actions, which are unnecesary, are weakening national security, weakening the american economy, and weakening our integrity in the eyes of the rest of the world.  That is my issue, and while the US is not your country, it should be the issue on the minds of other americans.   

why you think that soldiers aren't prone to commit crimes is beyond me, there are deviants in ANY job...priests molest little children, Muslim leaders support terrorism, chocolate factory workers end up being gay serial murdering cannibals...the thing that differentiates us and the scum that we are fight is that the criminals on our side will and have been punished for their actions by a jury of their peers, while the terrorists blowing up lines of civilians are seen as freedom fighters, the people cutting the heads off of old men and women that are rebuilding their country are seen as revolutionaries

[Thirteen]

What kind of war has more casualties per day after the war ends than while its going on? 

Look I'm glad you proudly serve your country, but don't bullshit me that just because you serve in the military you know it all.  Anyone that blindly supports Bush loses their right to a credible opinion.  I've come on here repeatedly and instead of just spouting personal opinions I've shown you reports, and analysis by republicans and independents.  Meanwhile you, nor anyone else on this site, has ever been able to effectively argue against me.  The reason you can't is because this time your side is wrong, and your position is completely indefensible. 

Instead you have to look for ways to discredit the attacks.  Richard Clarke is partisan.  Michael Scheurer is simply disgruntled.  McLaughlin is upset he didn't get to head the CIA.  Nobel Laureates are all liberals.  The economists don't know whet they are talking about.


The way you argue.  The only people who are right are the people who side with Bush.  Imagine if instead of trying to prove your side right you tried to simply find out what was the truth.  Instead you come from a biased position, and your unwilling to change.  I was willing to change my opinion for a long time, but not one ever countered the arguements leveled agaisnt Bush. Bush never countered them instead he just deflected, lied, and slandered his opposition.   

Then you come on here talking like an ignorant asshole that is proud we are 'crushin'g the opposition.  We aren't crushing the opposition.  We are killing people.  We are killing insurgents, and we  killing innocent civilians.  I don;t have to serve in iraq to tell you that is wrong.  If you proudly stand up for the killing of tens  of thousands of innocents, if you stand up for the execution of injured insurgents, and the torture of thousands more then fuck off prick no one is proud that you served and have ur medals. 

I'm proud of the soldier that served their country respectfully and served for the good of their nation and the good of the world.  My Father and both of my grandfathers served under the US military.  Countlesss men and women have served this country respectfully.  But don't tell me that some lil prick that talks about killing like its a football game deserves respect.  Everytime I hear you run your motuh about how we are killing and tearin everyoen apart it makes me think that your not different than the guy mentioned in this article.

once again, this isn't your average war, what we are doing now can't even be compared to a war...war has a set of laws, you have uniforms...you know what you can and what you cannot attack. this is people that try to kill you one second and hide out in churchs and hospitals in the next second. why do you think there's so many civilian casualties? it's not as easy as saying "hey there's a military base, let's bomb it and see how many uniformed soldiers we can dig out" this is "ok we have to attack this church because sniper shots just kiled the 3 people in front of me...

and about me blindly supporting bush...where'd you get that from? the only reason i voted for bush is taht i knew it would piss people off, and it's worked greatly...do i think this war is right? no, but now taht we're in it i think it would be a great diservice, not only to the people that have given their lives, but also to the Iraqi people that want something better in their lives, just to pull out.

secondly, why would i have to argue with you about bush? you're the one with the problem of him being in office and the fact is you can post 10 million articles a day on why he shouldn't be there and he will still be the president...it all seems pretty useless, i have a better chance of arguing taht all grass should be purple
 
and finally, they are just numbers, if me or anyone else in here were to die tomorrow, no one on this board would honestly give a shit...you'd get a few r.i.p.'s and a few jokes in a thread taht will be forgotten in a few days...the only people that care about you would be your friends and families and 100 years from now, who will remember you? no one....what are you reduced to? a random grave stone and a statistic...at least if i were to die in this war, someday my name will be on a monument

[acbaylove]

^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit

I knew you disagree with it. Different roots, different religion, different vision of the world. But let's stop dissing each others like kids, it's getting boring. That's MY point of view.

[*Jamal*]

Javier agreed with me, and he's not of the same religion as me; he's more likely to be of of the same one as you.... so don't bring that bullshit. In your view, all people are evil, want to release their anger, but won't since something inside tells them not to; soldiers on the other hand, are "allowed" to release that anger by raping people, torturing them, etc. First of all, do you really think that all soldiers do that shit? If not, then wouldn't that mean that only the ones that do are "evil"? Why generalize?

[Real American]

This soldier wasn't "releasing anger". The solider made a mistake because he thought his life was in danger. This guy that was killed was not an innocent civilian praying in the mosque, he was a fighter who was attacking US soliders.  Do you think it is easy for our guys to go from street to street and door to door with people shooting at you from every angle? This is a war and these young men have to be alert at all times for a possible attack on them. All it takes is one second and you are dead. As the news reports have said, the solider who shot this guy had already been shot once, and his unit had already had a a man killed after a booby trap went off on the dead body of some Iraqi insurgent. So they have to be prepared when approaching any so called injured or dead fighters. It was a mistake on his part, but in the heat of the battle should he take the chance that this guy might pull out a grenade or gun and kill him? If you watch the video you can see that he thinks he was in danger. It wasn't right but I am not going to condemn him because I might have done the same thing in his shoes.

It is also interesting that this thread has like 20 responses while the thread about the terrorists killing that female civialian charity worker only has two. But this is not suprising conidering the type of people that post here.

[*Jamal*]

CWalker, the guy could've said on camera "Hey, I'm killing these Muslims for fun", and your comment would still include "I would've done the same thing in his shoes", so cut the crap, you bigot.

[acbaylove]

Javier agreed with me, and he's not of the same religion as me; he's more likely to be of of the same one as you.... so don't bring that bullshit. In your view, all people are evil, want to release their anger, but won't since something inside tells them not to; soldiers on the other hand, are "allowed" to release that anger by raping people, torturing them, etc. First of all, do you really think that all soldiers do that shit? If not, then wouldn't that mean that only the ones that do are "evil"? Why generalize?

No, hold on. I didnt say that all people are evil, but that evil is inside of us, since we are humans. If you wanna see it from a religious prospective, the only "thing" who can save us is God. If you wanna see it from a scientific prospective, there are tons of books who talks about it. Everybody, even the Pope, got something inside of him, which is negative. It's like that in every man. We gotta face it and fight it. Now, from thousands of books of criminology etc.. we know that the things who doesnt make you kills other people, usually, are various:

- the place where you live: if you live in a place where the guns are not toys, you dont think about killing people.
- the religion: if you grew up with religious roots and beliefs, you know that if you kill someone you go to Hell. It's a sin.
- the law: you know that if you kill someone, you go to jail.
- others.

When all those things collapses, you really start to think that "it's right" to kill. It's something complicated to understand, i know. You should read full books with 500-600 pages of explanations and examples. Anyway i didnt say "all the soldiers" are moved by hate. I didnt generalized. I'm saying that it's easy to loose the control of your mind in a war. Cause all those things (the place, the religion, the law, etc..) doesnt stop you no more. I'm saying to me it's not surprising that "normal" people, during a war, does atrocious things. I'm seeing it from a different prospective than you. For sure there are soldiers who believe they are doing the right thing. For sure there are "good" soldiers. But i was trying to let you know WHY those atrocious things happens in a war. Even from "normal" people.