us marine kills wounded, unarmed man in a mosque in al-falluja

[Thirteen]

this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people. An officer got convicted of murder and derilection of duty last year for killing an injured man.

honestly though, that camera man is an asshole, i understand you got some dirty shit on tape and it's evidence of a crime, but he's putting more people's lives at danger just so his name can be in the limelight.

[Real American]

this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people.

It wasn't a mercy killing. if you saw the video you would see that the Marine thought the guy was dangerous.

Why does this thread have 30 replies while the savage killing of a female charity worker only has 2?

[*Jamal*]

this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people.

It wasn't a mercy killing. if you saw the video you would see that the Marine thought the guy was dangerous.

Why does this thread have 30 replies while the savage killing of a female charity worker only has 2?

If the other thread had 30 replies, then the soldier and the terrorist would be on the same level as far as morals go. Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those terrorists. 

[acbaylove]

There's a big difference. I agree, both the things are brutal and wrong: the death of an injured man, and the death of an innocent man. But you cant say soldiers and terrorists are doing the same things. There's a big big difference between them, man. A soldier is fighting a war against other "soldiers". I agree it's a wrong war, but it's a war. A terrorist is fighting who? How? By killing innocent people and the Iraqi citizen in "the name of Allah"? It's a very big difference. Both the things are wrong, i repeat. But terrorists are even worse, cause they are doing it "for Allah". That's the most dangerous thing. Allah has nothing to do with it. There's no reason to scream Allah, to thank Allah or to kill for Allah. It aint no Jihad. That's pure bullshit. Exactly like the reason Bush gave us: "we're fighting to have a free Iraq". Both are lies. But the terrorists are killing innocent people by purpose. It's their only reason and target: to kill innocent people. They did in with the Twin Towers, they did it with that disco in Bali, they did it in Turkey by bombing a Jewish church, they did it in Madrid, they did it by killing italian Carabinieri's, they did it by bombing Red Cross and UN, they do it everytime they kill innocents. I cant accept it.

[*Jamal*]

There's a big difference. I agree, both the things are brutal and wrong: the death of an injured man, and the death of an innocent man. But you cant say soldiers and terrorists are doing the same things. There's a big big difference between them, man. A soldier is fighting a war against other "soldiers". I agree it's a wrong war, but it's a war. A terrorist is fighting who? How? By killing innocent people and the Iraqi citizen in "the name of Allah"? It's a very big difference. Both the things are wrong, i repeat. But terrorists are even worse, cause they are doing it "for Allah". That's the most dangerous thing. Allah has nothing to do with it. There's no reason to scream Allah, to thank Allah or to kill for Allah. It aint no Jihad. That's pure bullshit. Exactly like the reason Bush gave us: "we're fighting to have a free Iraq". Both are lies. But the terrorists are killing innocent people by purpose. It's their only reason and target: to kill innocent people. They did in with the Twin Towers, they did it with that disco in Bali, they did it in Turkey by bombing a Jewish church, they did it in Madrid, they did it by killing italian Carabinieri's, they did it by bombing Red Cross and UN, they do it everytime they kill innocents. I cant accept it.

Listen up... most of our enemies in Iraq aren't terrorists, they're Iraqi citizens fighting what they see as an oppression, a colonization, etc. They didn't come here and kill our citizens, we went there. I'm not defending terrorism, but when it comes to the war on Iraq, I can't say that the Iraqi insurgents are at fault. Terrorists kill innocent people because they think that maybe the leaders of the countries those innocent people are from will get the off their land, out of their country. Obviously it's dumb for them to think that because it's evident that our government has no regard for human lives when it comes to taking over countries and benefitting financially.

[tommyilromano]

lol are you really that impressed that we are winning a war against a tiny militia?  no one expected us to lose in Iraq, but no one expected us to do as badly as we are doing. 

Did you forget, your leader declared the war over more than a year ago now? lol how do you seriously sit around and justify all this nonsense to youself?  It makes no sense.  The war was declared over a year ago, and more people are still continuing to die.  We didn't route 2000 insurgents in fallujah.  The insurgents all left, thats why new fighting is breaking out all over iraq this week. 

I don't doubt that we will win the war in Iraq? But who the hell is the war even against?  It was supposed to be against saddam.  He is gone now.  Then we were there to liberate iraq.  Now we are there to beat iraq? 

This isn't baseball asshole.  When the score is 35-1000 that isn't points.  That is dead bodies.  Do you realize this? Because you talk about war like its a game.   

So when the mission is accomplished and we finally beat Iraq then what? How do we deal with the rest of the terrorist threat?  Al-Queda exists in 60 countries, and they are just ONE terrorist group, there are plenty more.  Granted Al-Queda is the biggest, but we are having a tough time with a shitty little insurgency in Iraq.  I'm looking forward to the day you go over there.  Then you will realize how childish you've been all this time, when u see bullets flying by you and then they hit you and you realize, its not Halo.  You don't go run, and grab the health pack, and rejoin the battle.  You sit there and die or wake up in a hosipital in pain for weeks.

1. tiny militia? 2000 dead, 1000 captured in fallujah and you consider this tiny? this happens to be the only people we happened to kill and capture...there could be numbers more.  it's harder to fight a war against people that look like civilians than it is against a country's army that all have the same uniform... a person in iraq can ride his bike, drop off a IED, kill 8 people and then be off to work....i don't expect you to comprehend this because all you do is sit behind your computer reading articles.

2. if you want to be technical...the war was already over, it was declared over almost a year ago...right now we're just providing security...so while sadaam is gone, there's always the need for security

3. i've already been in one warzone, i've got medals for it. i've done charity and security work in countries where we had to have a group of marines watch us while we try to rebuild schools,and got medals for that. Now i'm training to be in a combat unit that's headed to iraq in jan.... don't sit behind your computer and preach to me what might happen to me, i'm well aware of all this and more. if anyone has a right to talk and debate on this subject it's me, because while all you guys make up reasons on how this situation effects your life, it REALLY effects my life

Good luck with Iraq! I probably won't end up there since I am already "deployed" at Incirlik AB. Its easy for the Europeans (except the Italians, Polish, and some other small countries there) to point the finger when they have done nothing to reslove it any other way. There is a large amount of stress that goes along with war so I will not judge this marine all I saw was the 30 second clip.

[acbaylove]

Listen up... most of our enemies in Iraq aren't terrorists, they're Iraqi citizens fighting what they see as an oppression, a colonization, etc. They didn't come here and kill our citizens, we went there.

I know. I was talking about terrorists cause you said: "Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those terrorists". Not cause i think all the people in Iraq are terrorists. I've never said that. Let's talk about terrorism. They actually went in the USA to kill their citizens. They went to Turkey to kill their citizens. They went to Spain to kill their citizens. They went to Bali to kill their citizens. Etc.. People from all over the world who had nothing to do with Americans, and nothing to do with the war. That's why i'm saying they have no excuses for what they did. You are talking about resistence, and that's a totally different thing. So maybe you wrote it wrong? Maybe you meant "Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those PEOPLE FROM THE RESISTENCE?".

I'm not defending terrorism, but when it comes to the war on Iraq, I can't say that the Iraqi insurgents are at fault. Terrorists kill innocent people because they think that maybe the leaders of the countries those innocent people are from will get the off their land, out of their country. Obviously it's dumb for them to think that because it's evident that our government has no regard for human lives when it comes to taking over countries and benefitting financially.

So how do you explain terrorists killing Turkish people? Killing youngs in a disco in Bali? Killing people in the Twin Towers BEFORE the two wars? Killing students in Spain? Did Turkey, Spain, Italy, Bali etc.. take a benefitting financially from something? Man terrorism is wrong. Period.

[Ðøšïå]

^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit. 

[acbaylove]

^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.

1- I'm Italian, i can explain what Italians are doing in Iraq. And it's different from what US soldiers are doing.
2- I wrote maybe 10 times in this topic i dont support the war and i think it's wrong.

When i say i dont support terrorism and that terrorism is wrong, i'm not automatically supporting any war. Get it straight.

[Thirteen]

^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit. 

it is bullshit but since it's happening, we might as well try to get some good done, those insurgents are destroying everything and anything they want to....i know they want america to look bad and get out but they are the leading cause of the 100,000 civilian deaths. after the war was declared over, that should have ended the majority of the violence, there would be no more need for large US forces, bombing runs and all that, we would have just rebuilt and got out... now not only are they killing their people, they're causing us to kill their people and the US is going to do the same thing they planned on doing

[BuddenzNasir]

Makavelli thats like saying Americans shouldnt get caught for the things they do wrong!.....ummm u guys mess up so much its gonna get caught once in a while, no wonder americans are the most hated as it is. and really Ur winning the war but ur still fighting these little iraqi rebels and its not even close to an end. its still kinda sad in my eyes.

[Fathom]

I would have shot that man too.  Insurgents had been faking death in mosques and then blowing themselves up.  The marine that had shot that man had been injured a few hours earlier by one of those insurgents.

[Ant]

^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit. 

it is bullshit but since it's happening, we might as well try to get some good done, those insurgents are destroying everything and anything they want to....i know they want america to look bad and get out but they are the leading cause of the 100,000 civilian deaths. after the war was declared over, that should have ended the majority of the violence, there would be no more need for large US forces, bombing runs and all that, we would have just rebuilt and got out... now not only are they killing their people, they're causing us to kill their people and the US is going to do the same thing they planned on doing

The insurgency exists for a number of reasons, not all are America's fault, but some are.  Its not just a bunch of people who are there to fuck up there country.  The initial formation of the Al Sadr insurgency was the result of a US decision to close down a newspaper that was printing negative stories about the U.S.  Al Sadr, saw this as a form of oppression, and denial of freedom of speech, and formed a militia that really was the start of a majory insurgency.  Before that decision the insurgency was relatively small.  After losing his voice when his newspaper was closed down, the insurgency was formed.

Now there is another major reason for the Iraqi insurgency, and that is Halliburton.  Basically, when we went in and blew up all the buildings, we gave Halliburton contracts to rebuild Iraq.  This angered a lot of iraqis who say an American firm profiting from the destruction of their country, while they were out of work.  I supported the war initially saying that if GWB truly liberated iraq, and proved to the muslim world we were there 1) to fight terrorism 2) to spread prosperity then even if there were no WMD the was in iraq would not have been such a bad thing.  Obviously now, this is not the case.  We neither found WMD, nor proved to the Muslim world that the US was truly intending to spread prosperity.  Instead we made them believe exactly the opposite.  In many ways we confirmed there worst fears: that the US is an imperialistic power that came to Iraq looking for profits and power.  Now it is still debatable whether this is entirely true, but when your dealing with a group of people who are already skeptical of your actions, and you get caught running a tortute prison, then you give away all the reconstruction profits to American firms, and you install, what many iraqis see, as a puppet government you tend to rub them the wrong way. 

So, Halliburton played a large part in inciting the insurgency.  The iraqis saw foreign workers and foreign corporations profiting from the destruction of their cities, and it confirmed their belief that the US was not here to liberate, and spread prosperity, but instead to occupy and steal from their nation. 

So yeah, there are probably other reasons for the insurgency, for example some of these people just want power, or just hate the US.  That may be the reason why some of the insurgent leaders are fighting, but the insurgent leaders need followers, and their followers exist due to the reasons explained above. 

[Thirteen]

i know what you're saying ant and i agree with the freedom of speech one but honestly, do you think that since an american company got the contract to rebuild these people's home is the reason they are going out and killing their own people lining up for jobs?

just doesn't make sense

[Ant]

well i see that as part of the reason why things are what they are.  i'm sure some of what happens is just based on hate and anger, but i believe some iraqis see the people lining up for jobs as traitors.

you know initially, dick cheney said, halliburton recieved the contracts because they were best equipped for the job.  When i first heard that, I actually thought it made sense, and in some ways it does.  Halliburton, technically, is the probably more efficient at reconstruction than the iraqis would be themselves.  But I ended up thinking it was a mistake to give Halliburton the job, because had we given contracts to iraqi firms for reconstruction it would have a) employed a lot of people b) given the iraqis the opportunity develop skill sets c) in some ways lower costs because reconstruction would not be disrupted as much if iraqi firms were doing the work.

i think when they see iraqis working with the americans they seem them as traitors because the majority of the work is being done by american firms, and if work is being done by an iraqi he isn't the business owner, he is just an employee most likely of an american firm.  they see the same thing with the iraqi police and iraqi military.  they are paid to fight other iraqis, many people see them as traitors, because to a lot of people the reason for the resistance makes sense.  to the avg. iraqi right now, we look like imperialists.  we tortured people, we killed civilians, we gave all the reconstruction money to us firms, etc.  regardless of our intentions, sometimes perceptions are reality and they percieve us as being assholes.  so to the avg. iraqi, the insurgents dont seem as evil as they seem to us.  the insurgents aren't killing civilians, they are killing foreigners and people they view as traitors. 

overall, if the reconstruction for iraq was conducted by iraqis i think it would have greatly benefited iraqi interests and US interests.  the avg. iraqi would be more upset with the insurgents, and less tolerant of them had we given them an opportunity to earn a decent wage, and helped them grow their economy.  instead their economy has progressively declined for example take this latest bit of news:

"Since the March 2003 invasion, malnutrition among children between the ages of 6 months and 5 years has grown from 4 percent to 7.7 percent, said Jon Pedersen, deputy managing director of the Oslo, Norway-based Fafo Institute for Applied Social Science, which conducted the survey." -AP

I supported the iraq war, because i thought if we went in, found wmd, and brought prosperity to iraq, the muslim world would be less inclined to support terrorism.  they would look up to the US, and believe we are a country with integrity and it would make the terrorists seem like assholes.  Instead the decisions we made almost garaunteed we would not bring prosperity to iraq and in the end, we lost the support of the iraqi people, the international community, and we gave skeptical muslims a reason to believe their skepticism was not misguided. 


.. sorry for the lengthy post, i have a tendency to be wordy, and im too lazy to edit.