Author Topic: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?  (Read 343 times)

Ant

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What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« on: February 04, 2005, 09:21:24 AM »
The so-called liberal media for a week or so now has been chanting about the astonishing success of the iraqi elections.   Yet, success is a subjective idea unless its made concrete by pre-defined metrics.  I have yet to be told what our metrics actually were for the election?  Is it a success because under 100 people died in one day?  Was there some sort of turnout percentage we were shooting for?  Does the sunni vote matter at all?  Or is it a success simply because some people actually went to vote?  The assertion that this election is a success simply because some people went to vote is foolish.  Without predefined metrics its irresponsible spin to claim success or failure.  So let's talk a little bit about what actually happened as opposed to the Bush spin on what happened on election day in Iraq.

After days of hearing the media chant the unverifiable Bush figure, that 57% percent of eligble voters turned out for this election, we finally begin learning that this number was likely overexagerated.  http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000788083

One would think part of the metrics for a successful election would include an informed electorate, yet the media rarely informed the american people that over half of all iraqi voters thought they were voting for a president, when in fact they were voting for a national assembly to develop a constitution.

One would think it was important that voters who turned out actually had some familiarity with the candidates, and knew clearly where the candidates stood the issues and in regards to their personal ideology.  Yet leading up to the elections half a dozen candidates were assassinated. As a result, the names of most candidates were not made public until a few days before the election on web sites inaccessible to most Iraqis. 

Then there is the actual issue of turnout.  Now that some figures are actually coming in we are estimating that in the Al Anbar Province only 17,000 of a potential 250,000 eligible voters showed up at the pools - a 7% turnout. In Ramadi, a city with 400,000 people, only 1,700 voted.  In Mosul, a city with 1.8 million people, 58,000 people turned out.  And at another poll in Mosul, only 3% of those who actually voted were women.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-mosul31jan31,1,1061549.story?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=3&cset=true
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-ramadi31jan31,1,475153.story?coll=la-news-a_section

In the end your left with a situtation where a large number of uninformed voters, who didnt know they were voting for a national assembly and didn't know the candidates, turned out in numbers much smaller than originally reported.

The right is quick say say the left was hoping for failure.  I don't think anything could be farther from the truth.  Progress requires an honest acceptance of reality, and an admission of faults that need to be taken into account and corrected.  The willed ignorance of the right has lead us to this point, with failure after failure, and it will continue to lead us onto further failures if the right is unwilling to stand up and face reality. 

 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 09:24:21 AM by Ant »
 

Real American

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2005, 12:23:49 PM »
OK, this might possibly be the dumbest post ever on Train of Thought. By what measurement are the Iraqi elections a success? How about the fact that they happened at all! Never before in the history of the world has an Arab country had national democratic elections. IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! And not only did they happen, but 60% or so of eligible voters risked their lives to go to the poll and participare in a  process that people all over the world take from granted.

What more do you want, dude? As time goes on, and democracy hopefully takes root, they will eventually build the institutions that we find in more mature democracies.  In conclusion, only a bitter, defeated leftist like Ant would find something to complain about with these historic  elections in Iraq. Get a life dude. You would rather have the Iraq people suffer in order to prove Bush was wrong then let oppressed people like the Iraqis experience feeedom and joy. You make me sick...
 

Ant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2005, 01:24:34 PM »
OK, this might possibly be the dumbest post ever on Train of Thought. By what measurement are the Iraqi elections a success? How about the fact that they happened at all! Never before in the history of the world has an Arab country had national democratic elections. IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! And not only did they happen, but 60% or so of eligible voters risked their lives to go to the poll and participare in a  process that people all over the world take from granted.

What more do you want, dude? As time goes on, and democracy hopefully takes root, they will eventually build the institutions that we find in more mature democracies.  In conclusion, only a bitter, defeated leftist like Ant would find something to complain about with these historic  elections in Iraq. Get a life dude. You would rather have the Iraq people suffer in order to prove Bush was wrong then let oppressed people like the Iraqis experience feeedom and joy. You make me sick...

You have a hard time reading.

1.  The often used, and unverifiable number for turnout is 57%.  I pointed out this figure is an overestimate - the actual number will be much lower.

2. This is not the first time an arab country has had democratic elections.  Palestine recently had elections. 

3.  Conservatives historically oppose nation-building of course you and your fellow bush-supporters aren't really conservative, your merely republican.

4.  After killing, or severely injuring over 100,000 Iraqi civilians over a war that was not of their choice, the least we can do, as compassionate individuals (which you seem to think you are) is show some honest humility when addressing the situation in Iraq so that we can proceed in as intelligent a manner as possible and truly look out for the best interests of America and the Iraqi People.  Blindly repeating nonsensical rhetoric is not compassionate, and if there are real problems in iraq we should not arrogantly dismiss them by refusing to critically consider reality.  If you cared about the iraqi people or the sustained prosperity of the american public you wouldn't be afraid of opinions that conflict with your own worldview.

5.  That's all I'm going to bother saying because you obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension.  Re-read my original post again for more.




 
 

Ant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2005, 07:39:37 PM »
After hearing the conservative owned media for days now report about the success of the Iraqi elections, stories like this remained buried and unreported.
_____

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents in pickup trucks attacked a police station south of Baghdad late Sunday, prompting an hourlong gunfight that killed 22 Iraqi security forces and 14 attackers, a police official said.

The clash broke out about 10:30 p.m. in Mahawil, 50 miles south of Baghdad, police Capt. Muthana Khalid Ali told The Associated Press by telephone.

Ali said five Iraqi national guardsmen and 17 police were killed and 18 security personnel were wounded. He said the attackers used automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenades before withdrawing under fire.

Mahawil is in a mixed area of Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack

____

And CWalker, anytime you want to come clean about the stupidity of your original post feel free.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2005, 07:41:44 PM by Ant »
 

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2005, 08:23:08 PM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence
 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2005, 09:21:57 PM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence

  ???
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Thirteen

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2005, 09:30:37 PM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence

  ???

what? you don't think it's a noble cause for people to do what they believe in despite the overcomming threat of violence and without the need to resort to violent acts? i think what these people did is admirable... lord knows i wouldn't have voted for bush if people were saying they were going to bomb the shit out of my local firehall
 

Ant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2005, 06:58:48 AM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence

  ???

what? you don't think it's a noble cause for people to do what they believe in despite the overcomming threat of violence and without the need to resort to violent acts? i think what these people did is admirable... lord knows i wouldn't have voted for bush if people were saying they were going to bomb the shit out of my local firehall

no one is suggesting what the Iraqis did wasn't admirable.  But still there were a number of ignored problems with this election.  I'm not going to restate myself, so go back and re-read my post.   As far as your metric, people showing up just isn't enough.  Of course some people were going to show up and vote.  If thats the highest you set the bar for achievement no wonder Republicans still support Bush. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2005, 10:09:02 AM by Ant »
 

Shallow

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2005, 11:31:48 AM »
Where is Saddam Hussein right now?
 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2005, 08:34:43 PM »
being prepped on what too say when hes in court

"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

Thirteen

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2005, 09:22:10 PM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence

  ???

what? you don't think it's a noble cause for people to do what they believe in despite the overcomming threat of violence and without the need to resort to violent acts? i think what these people did is admirable... lord knows i wouldn't have voted for bush if people were saying they were going to bomb the shit out of my local firehall

no one is suggesting what the Iraqis did wasn't admirable.  But still there were a number of ignored problems with this election.  I'm not going to restate myself, so go back and re-read my post.   As far as your metric, people showing up just isn't enough.  Of course some people were going to show up and vote.  If thats the highest you set the bar for achievement no wonder Republicans still support Bush. 


some people... try 1/2 of the country.... you act like this was you going to the grocery store... these people had their lives threatened... they didn't know if after they flipped that lever if a car was gonna drive through the building and kill them. nice try to down play this but like i said, before you question someone, put yourself in their shoes
 

Ant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2005, 07:17:28 AM »
i'd say the metric of success is people risking their life trying to accomplish something better without resorting to violence

  ???

what? you don't think it's a noble cause for people to do what they believe in despite the overcomming threat of violence and without the need to resort to violent acts? i think what these people did is admirable... lord knows i wouldn't have voted for bush if people were saying they were going to bomb the shit out of my local firehall

no one is suggesting what the Iraqis did wasn't admirable.  But still there were a number of ignored problems with this election.  I'm not going to restate myself, so go back and re-read my post.   As far as your metric, people showing up just isn't enough.  Of course some people were going to show up and vote.  If thats the highest you set the bar for achievement no wonder Republicans still support Bush. 


some people... try 1/2 of the country.... you act like this was you going to the grocery store... these people had their lives threatened... they didn't know if after they flipped that lever if a car was gonna drive through the building and kill them. nice try to down play this but like i said, before you question someone, put yourself in their shoes

You have a hard time reading and its getting annoying.  Since you are unwilling to 'scroll up' to my original post I guess I have to restate a few things for you hear.  Hopefully, having saved you the trouble of scrolling to the top of this thread, you will actual read what I have written.

1.  You, and other republicans in this thread, repeatedly use unverifiable numbers for turn-out.  I pointed out in my original post that no one knows the actual turn-out numbers yet, and so-far the media has only repeated an unverifiable number given to them by the Bush administration. 

2.  One poll showed 50% of the Iraqi population thought they were voting for their new President when in fact they were not.  I wouldn't be surpised if you were one of the many people in America that thought Iraqis were voting for a President, when in fact they were voting for a National Assembly.

3.  Virtually every voter had almost no information on the candidates before going to the polls.  Essentially, the entire population voted blind. About 6 candidates were assasinated leading up to the election, and most candidates, in fear of losing their lives did not announce their candidacy until a few days before the election, or in some cases on the day of the election.   Of course maybe this isn't a big issue to you, since you, like many other American voters, think its entirely acceptable to essentially vote blind and argue the issues without any background knowledge.

Anyways, let me restate, if your metric for success is an election where:

1.  Perhaps somewhere around 50% of the population votes blind without knowing a) the candidates or b) that they weren't voting for the president.

2.  Only 60 or so people actually die on election day.

Then, by all means you are entitled to your opinion.  As I said in my first post, success is a subjective idea.  However, I would suggest that had your metric been applied across the board and extended to other nations the long-term success of a democratic system would be fragile at best. 
 

Shallow

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2005, 08:33:25 AM »
being prepped on what too say when hes in court




Do the lack of WMDs make a great case for him? I think it'd be hillarious if he were to be aquitted then run and win the next Iraq election, just to here what Bush's response to wrong war wrong place wrong time this time around.
 

Ant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2005, 12:54:49 PM »
being prepped on what too say when hes in court


Do the lack of WMDs make a great case for him? I think it'd be hillarious if he were to be aquitted then run and win the next Iraq election, just to here what Bush's response to wrong war wrong place wrong time this time around.

Probably not.  I doubt he will be acquitted.  He did a lot of horrible things, and he certainly would never win another iraqi election.
 

Rampant

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Re: What is the metric of success for the Iraqi elections?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2005, 01:04:46 PM »
....Saddam isn't on trial for WMD.