Author Topic: Italy disputes U.S. shooting account  (Read 398 times)

Don Rizzle

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2005, 12:16:43 PM »
friendly fire is a mutha fucker americans killed more brits than the iraqi's did in both iraq wars

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

dexter

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2005, 01:39:15 PM »
Piss poor training^^^^^^
Communications Leadership problems
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2005, 05:40:12 PM »


Medal Of Honor of the Italian Republic Nicola CALIPARI.
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2005, 08:28:33 AM »
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has challenged the U.S. account of a shooting incident that left her wounded and an Italian intelligence officer dead shortly after her release by Iraqi insurgents. U.S.-led multi-national forces said the car carrying Sgrena was speeding and that soldiers fired warning shots in an attempt to stop it, before opening fire. But the 56-year-old journalist, currently being treated for a shoulder injury in a Rome hospital, said the car was not speeding. She told Italian La 7 TV on Sunday "there was no bright light, no signal," according to The Associated Press. And in an article for Sunday's edition of her newspaper, Il Manifesto, she said the shooting, which occurred Friday as agents were taking her to the airport in Baghdad, recalled her captors' warning that "the Americans don't want you to return." Il Manifesto, a left-leaning newspaper that has long opposed the Iraq war, even accused U.S. forces on Saturday of "assassinating" Nicola Calipari, who was killed protecting Sgrena from U.S. gunfire. Sgrena's partner, Pierre Scolari, blamed the shooting on the U.S. government, even suggesting the incident was intentional. "I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone," he said, according to Reuters. Sgrena, who returned to Rome on Saturday, said she was doing well but was "upset" by the death of Calipari, who had led negotiations for the journalist's release. Two other agents were also wounded. Calipari's body arrived in Rome on Saturday night as top officials including Defense Minister Antonio Martino and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi stood by. Calipari's wife, mother and two children were also present. An autopsy was performed on Sunday. The ANSA news agency reported doctors as saying the 50-year-old agent was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly. The body lay in state at Rome's Vittoriano monument, and a state funeral was planned for Monday. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi said he would award Calipari the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

'Last breath'
Sgrena, who was kidnapped outside a mosque in Baghdad on February 4, said her captors treated her well and took her to meet the Italian security agents after blindfolding her, telling her, "don't give any signals of your presence with us, otherwise the Americans could intervene." She said she was in the car with the agents and heading for the airport, which was less than a mile away, when they approached the checkpoint. "I only remember fire," she wrote. "At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us." The driver began yelling that they were Italians, she wrote, and "Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately, I heard his last breath as he was dying on me." She said she remembered something her captors had told her: "They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me, but I had to be careful -- 'the Americans don't want you to go back.'" At the time, she said, "I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths."

The U.S. government has pledged a full investigation into the shooting incident and offered its condolences.
Multi-national forces have said troops tried to warn the driver of Sgrena's vehicle to stop using hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots in front of the car. The soldiers shot into the engine block when the driver did not stop, the forces said in a statement Friday. Italian magistrate Franco Ionta, however, said Sgrena, interviewed in her hospital room Saturday, gave a different version of events. "It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight," she told him. "We didn't know where the bullets were coming from. We had not met other checkpoints before. Our car was absolutely not traveling at high speed." Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint. The road where the incident took place is particularly dangerous, said CNN's Nic Robertson. Sgrena said she "risked everything" to challenge "the Italian government, who didn't want journalists to reach Iraq, and the Americans," who she said did not want the public to see "what really became of that country with the war, and notwithstanding that which they call elections." She said she told her captors they could not ask the Italian government to withdraw the 3,000 Italian troops from Iraq -- "their political go-between could not be the government but the Italian people, who were and are against the war."

Neither Italian nor American officials have revealed how Sgrena was freed, but there has been speculation about a possible ransom. One Iraqi lawmaker, Younadem Kana, told Belgian state TV Saturday he had "nonofficial" information that a $1 million (€760,000) ransom was paid, according to AP. Asked whether a ransom was paid, an Italian Cabinet minister said it was "very likely." "Moreover, it is largely preferable to pay an economic price than the price of a human life, or a political price that would consist of blackmail to pull out troops," Agriculture Minister Giovanni Alemanno told Corriere della Sera newspaper. The shooting prompted criticism from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support for the Iraq war. But officials with Italy's center right-government said the shooting would not affect support for the country's efforts to help secure postwar Iraq. "The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq," said Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri, quoted by the ANSA news agency.

CNN's Alessio Vinci and Elise Labott contributed to this report.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 08:36:11 AM by Antonio »
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2005, 08:32:57 AM »
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Italians are celebrating the return of a reporter held captive by Iraqi insurgents for a month, but grieving over the killing by U.S. forces of a security officer who helped negotiate her release. Nicola Calipari, a veteran security agent who had previously aided the release of other Italian hostages, was shot dead while Giuliana Sgrena was being taken to an airport. Calipari's body arrived in Rome on Saturday night as top officials including Defense Minister Antonio Martino and Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi stood by. His coffin was wrapped in an Italian flag and was carried out of the military plane by a guard of honour. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi held both hands up to the coffin, standing motionless in front of the body for almost two minutes before allowing it to be placed in a hearse, according to Reuters reports. The married father of two died Friday after the car he, Sgrena and two other agents were riding in was shot by U.S. forces at a checkpoint. Calipari was killed after he threw his body across Sgrena's to protect her, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. Sgrena was struck in the left shoulder by shrapnel, and the two other agents were also wounded, he said. "Giuliana Sgrena, she is free," said the headline in Italy's leftist, antiwar Il Manifesto newspaper, where Sgrena works, but U.S. troops "assassinated her liberator." Another newspaper called Calipari an "007." The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq, and analysts said it could set off new protests in Italy, where tens of thousands have regularly demonstrated against the Iraq war. News of the shooting drew criticism from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support of the war. "Another victim of an absurd war," Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told the Apcom news agency, according to The Associated Press. Sgrena's partner said he could not fault the U.S. soldiers, telling Reuters they were probably "scared boys," and the blame lay with those who had sent them to Iraq. In a written statement, the U.S.-led Multi-National Forces said the shootings occurred when the vehicle carrying Sgrena, traveling at high speeds, "refused to stop at a checkpoint." "About 9 p.m. (1800 GMT), a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car. When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one." CNN's Nic Robertson said the coalition forces' rules of engagement permit them to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint. The road where the incident took place, near Baghdad's airport, was particularly dangerous, Robertson added. Sgrena, 56, landed in Rome on Saturday morning. A crowd milled around the plane as Sgrena's relatives and dignitaries, including Berlusconi, boarded the plane to greet her. A few moments later, she emerged, walking with assistance from two men, and was taken to a nearby ambulance.

U.S. condolences
President Bush called Berlusconi on Friday night to express his regrets about the shootings, and pledged a full investigation. Sgrena and one of the security agents, who was seriously injured, were taken to a U.S. military hospital in Iraq after the shootings. The other wounded agent was shot in the leg, and refused to be taken to a hospital, according to Italian news agencies. The identities of the two wounded agents were not released. Speaking from Iraq, Sgrena reportedly told Berlusconi's office she was "fine" and would have a light operation to remove the shrapnel from her shoulder. Upon her return, she was admitted to a Rome hospital and was also to face questioning from Italian investigators and prosecutors. In the wake of the shootings, Berlusconi called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office for an explanation, and the men were to meet, said State Department spokeswoman Darla Jordan. She said Sembler offered "U.S. condolences and any assistance the U.S. can provide," as did Assistant Secretary of State William Burns in a call to the Italian ambassador to the United States, Sergio Vento. Berlusconi said Sembler would have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops. "Someone will have to take responsibility," the prime minister said. He said the two other agents in the car contacted his office after the incident. "They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation," Berlusconi said. "We were stone silent as we waited to hear of the rest of what took place." Also Saturday, Reporters Without Borders, the journalists' watchdog group, asked the United Nations to investigate the matter and "shed light on the circumstances" that led to the tragedy. Italian officials had worked to secure Sgrena's safe release from capture. They did not say how she was freed Friday. Sgrena was kidnapped February 4 -- one month to the day before her release -- outside a mosque in Baghdad. Later that month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life. Italians have held numerous candlelight vigils calling for her safe return. Sgrena's co-workers were celebrating news of her release when news came of the shootings, according to a CNN producer at the scene. Their mood was immediately dampened. Pope John Paul II sent two messages of condolences, one to Berlusconi and another to Calipari's family, the Vatican said, according to AP. The pope said he was "saddened at the tragic death" of Calipari, and called him a "faithful and heroic servant of the state, who, in carrying out the delicate mission that had been given to him, didn't hesitate to sacrifice his life."

CNN's Alessio Vinci and Elise Labott contributed to this report.


Italian President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi touches the coffin of Nicola Calipari in Rome late Saturday
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 08:34:35 AM by Antonio »
 

Thirteen

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2005, 10:57:56 AM »
Nice....she was freed because they gave the hostage takers a million dollars...that's money well spent

she also think that the US tried to assassinate her

this bitch has gotten too much publicity
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2005, 11:09:41 AM »
It's not just that "bitch", man. It's the whole italian convoy who denied American version of the facts. And some of them are diplomats and members of our intelligence, so you have to respect them (Americans dont really want to break their international relationships with our intelligence, there's no need to do that). Personally i dont think Americans wanted to kill her (it was denied by our intelligence anyway, it's just her saying so), that's just her getting shot and being paranoid after it (a man died on her hands..). But for sure our witnesses are giving a totally different interpretation to what it happened than America did in their first version of the story. So much that Bush said: "Let's finish the investigations before we quickly jump to the conclusions". And i think they already admitted it wasnt a real check-point, but just a patrol.
 

Thirteen

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2005, 11:20:09 AM »
It's not just that "bitch", man. It's the whole italian convoy who denied American version of the facts. And some of them are diplomats and members of our intelligence, so you have to respect them (Americans dont really want to break their international relationships with our intelligence, there's no need to do that). Personally i dont think Americans wanted to kill her (it was denied by our intelligence anyway, it's just her saying so), that's just her getting shot and being paranoid after it (a man died on her hands..). But for sure our witnesses are giving a totally different interpretation to what it happened than America did in their first version of the story. So much that Bush said: "Let's finish the investigations before we quickly jump to the conclusions". And i think they already admitted it wasnt a real check-point, but just a patrol.

i understand tht but this lady is blowing things out of proportion for her own self interests... she's making outlandish claims and she's not adding anything to the investigations but lies...

she didn't tell exactly how she was freed/rescued... other people had to investigate into it...because you can't actually be proud of giving a million dollars to hostage takers....this is like giving a van and some gas certificates to some child molesters

she tells the heart wrenching story that that guy died in her arms when an autopsy was performed on him...it said he died instanly from a single GSW to the head

then she spreads rumours that the US tried to assassinate her.

and the only different account they are giving is that they weren't speeding and there wasn't supposed to be an american unit there... they did see bright lights...which were warnings to stop... the first shots went into the engine block of the car which more than likely caused the driver to panic (shit i know i would) and then the whole situation escalated from there
 

Rampant

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2005, 11:58:22 AM »
until yesterday i didnt hear the part of the story where they paid the hostage takers money for her freedom.

....Am i the only one who finds that wrong?
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2005, 12:13:18 PM »
i understand tht but this lady is blowing things out of proportion for her own self interests... she's making outlandish claims and she's not adding anything to the investigations but lies... she didn't tell exactly how she was freed/rescued... other people had to investigate into it...

True that. I never liked this journalist. She's an antiamerican leftwinger no-war noglobal pro-peace journalist who makes books, so she 99% exaggerated with that "i know things American dont want me to say". Just to add you something about this "bitch", she thanked Iraqi guys who kidnapped her cause they treated her well. An extremely dumb statement, if you ask me. Expecially when the guy who saved you from them is dead in your hands. I'm the opposite of this "bitch". I'm pro-american rightwinger and i hate noglobals, so i'm in no way defending her. I dont give a fuck about her. I want the truth for the poor hero who died.

Quote
because you can't actually be proud of giving a million dollars to hostage takers....this is like giving a van and some gas certificates to some child molesters

Actually nobody confirmed it. It wasnt our Minister to say we paid a million dollar. It was an Iraqi Minister, but we didnt confirm it. Who knows? Anyway they kidnapped a pro-Iraqi guy, so i'm sure they just wanted some money. They didnt give a fuck about Iraq, man. That's for sure. Cause money bought them.

Quote
she tells the heart wrenching story that that guy died in her arms when an autopsy was performed on him...it said he died instanly from a single GSW to the head

When we say somebody died in our hands, we italian means "because of me", not litterally "in our hands".

Quote
then she spreads rumours that the US tried to assassinate her.

Bullshit. I agree. I'm saying that from the first post.

Quote
and the only different account they are giving is that they weren't speeding and there wasn't supposed to be an american unit there... they did see bright lights...which were warnings to stop... the first shots went into the engine block of the car which more than likely caused the driver to panic (shit i know i would) and then the whole situation escalated from there

There are more details they revealed only to our prosecutor. But that changes everything, imo. Cause you cant blame italians no more, this way. It's just a mistake, like i'm saying from the first post. But this way somebody could be investigated for culpable homicide.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 04:04:37 PM by Antonio »
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2005, 12:14:16 PM »
until yesterday i didnt hear the part of the story where they paid the hostage takers money for her freedom.

....Am i the only one who finds that wrong?

It's unconfirmed. But man, it happens more than you expect.
 

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2005, 02:21:15 PM »
good old italy using their brain
 

Don Rizzle

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2005, 04:40:22 PM »
italians never were any good in military operations so no wonder they payed up, my grandad always told me their tanks had one forward gear and four in reverse during ww2. lol

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2005, 04:55:37 PM »
italians never were any good in military operations

No doubt. In fact we aint there fighting the war. We're there with Carabinieri, Police, doctors, with our Red Cross..
We're very good in those missions of peacekeeping, one of the best.
But we cant fight a war.
 

Don Seer

Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2005, 05:00:27 PM »
italians never were any good in military operations so no wonder they payed up, my grandad always told me their tanks had one forward gear and four in reverse during ww2. lol

gear box in backwards....

shame they didnt have ferrari tanks.. we'd have been fucked...  8) 8)
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2005, 05:11:13 PM »
 8)
 

Thirteen

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2005, 05:42:04 PM »
man that lady is awesome... look at the quotes of her situation

But in an interview with Italy's La 7 Television, the 56-year-old journalist said "there was no bright light, no signal."

And Italian magistrate Franco Ionta said Sgrena reported the incident was not at a checkpoint, but rather that the shots came from "a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."

---------------------------------

Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint.
 

*Jamal*

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2005, 05:51:29 PM »
U.S. Rules of Engagement

1. Check if the person is white.
2. If the person is white, be cautious, and only fire if being fired at. If the person is not white, blast the fucker.
 

Thirteen

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2005, 05:59:02 PM »
U.S. Rules of Engagement

1. Check if the person is white.
2. If the person is white, be cautious, and only fire if being fired at. If the person is not white, blast the fucker.

you're way off

we still friendly fire british
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2005, 06:02:16 PM »
man that lady is awesome... look at the quotes of her situation

But in an interview with Italy's La 7 Television, the 56-year-old journalist said "there was no bright light, no signal."

And Italian magistrate Franco Ionta said Sgrena reported the incident was not at a checkpoint, but rather that the shots came from "a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."

---------------------------------

Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint.

Man once again it happened in a few seconds. It was night, it was raining, visibility was not good. Italians were experts, not dumb. They probably didnt see Americans. Americans saw italians. They started shooting. Some bullets hit the car, and italians probably thought for a second it was a trap, since it was dark. It's a misunderstanding. But those "rules of engagement" arent the excuse to shot everybody that moves. The day before they shot some civils. The month before they shot one of our diplomat as a mistake. Shit they killed american and english soldiers too, with this "friendly fire". They shot they own helicopters. They shot Iraqi diplomats. I understand the pressure on those young guys who risks their life, but shit, friendly-fire is doing more damage than Saddam's army.
 

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2005, 02:18:41 AM »
But still it's hard to accept it.

LOL. 1 dead Italian is hard to accept, but thousands of Iraqis being killed is okay.... 
i kinda agree. More than 100,000 iraqui civilian casualties > 1 Journalist. Don't be outraged. Shit like this happens all the time
"You only live once, you might as well die now" - Slim Shady (RIP)
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2005, 04:24:46 AM »
But still it's hard to accept it.

LOL. 1 dead Italian is hard to accept, but thousands of Iraqis being killed is okay.... 
i kinda agree. More than 100,000 iraqui civilian casualties > 1 Journalist. Don't be outraged. Shit like this happens all the time

1 jounalist? naw, she's still alive, and i dont give a fuck about her.

Italy has lost 25 Carabinieri's in Iraq (it's our Police, people who helped Iraqi to build streets, to repair bridges, to fix electric power, to protect our Red Cross..), 2 doctors, 1 diplomat who was saving an hostage (this one) and 4 civils.

Those are victims = iraqui civilian casualties. Same sad shit.
 

Rampant

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2005, 05:47:25 AM »
Those are victims = iraqui civilian casualties. Same sad shit.
.....not even close

25(cops)+2(doctors)+1(diplomat)=28 total deaths which does not = 100,000 civillian casualties.

I think your being a drama queen about this whole ACCIDENT
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2005, 08:32:59 AM »
No, i think you are exploiting this death now. I've never used this death to blame Americans. I've never used this death to blame Berlusconi. I've never used this death to blame Iraqi or muslims. I've just reported a fact from Italian perspective. You are doing the same from your. That's it. It's not me the one who compared deaths. Imo, it's a great mistake to do that. I just said that those deaths are "sad" like the ones of innocent civilians. Cause all the deaths of innocent people is sad. I didnt compared 100,000 human lifes to 28. Read better. P.S. We're talking about an ITALIAN medal of honor. Maybe you dont give a fuck, and i understand it, but we do. It's a touching death, for us. It's a guy who served our Country and died for it. I'm sure there are a lot of "shocking" deaths too, in your Country. A mother who killed her son, a muslim who killed a christian (or viceversa), a dogg who killed a little boy.. whatever! This death is shocking for us. Oh, and just to let you understand how "touching" it was, more than 10,000 people assisted to his funeral. Then it's an accident, i know. But to say that doesnt mean there are no responsables. You can go to jail for culpable homicide too.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 08:36:19 AM by Antonio »
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2005, 03:09:23 PM »
Tonight our most important TV talk-show will talk about this accident. They will interview everyone involved plus US Ambassador and other important people. I'll keep you all informed.