Author Topic: Italy disputes U.S. shooting account  (Read 897 times)

*Jamal*

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2005, 11:03:25 PM »
What do some of the bigots on here say all the time?... Oh yea... "consequence of war", "shit happens", "it's okay, it's well worth it"...
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2005, 01:26:04 AM »
Haha she was freed not rescued, what were they running from again ? lol  ;D

Ok, freed. I'm not english. They were running from the terrorists, whatchu think? That area wasnt safe.
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2005, 01:34:50 AM »
Rules Of Engagement say that if there is a threat or practice that is dangerous to the safety of others,  you have a number of choices depending on the situation... of the situation lets you warn them person...then you get to warn them first...with warning shots, lights hand signals....

if the threat persiststhen you are allowed the use of deadly force

vehicles in iraq are considered a threat because everyone knows they can be made into bombs... there's even a chart that shows how far the blast radious will reach for each kind of vehicle...

anyways, the shots fired after the vehicle stopped falls under the part that says you do not have to cease fire until you know for sure the threat has been stopped... so just because a vehicle stops means that everything is going to be ok...

so far the article justifies the kind of force used...of course somethings might not be true but for now, it's the italians fault for being careless in a high security area

You know what's strange? That it wasnt a common car, or a camion. It was 3 vehicles of Italian Army. And it all happened in 10 seconds. From the article it looks like it happened in 10 minutes! Naw. It was in 10 seconds. They were running, trying to find the way to go to the Airport. It was dark, somebody shooted at them. They probably said: "Damn, continue! It's a trap", and 10 seconds later it was all done. Now i'm not saying Americans intentionally wanted to kill them. It's a mistake. Shit happens, and everything. But still it's hard to accept it.
 

*Jamal*

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2005, 01:40:58 AM »
But still it's hard to accept it.

LOL. 1 dead Italian is hard to accept, but thousands of Iraqis being killed is okay.... 
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2005, 03:44:41 AM »
But still it's hard to accept it.

LOL. 1 dead Italian is hard to accept, but thousands of Iraqis being killed is okay....

I never said it, so why are you laughing at it? The death of a man who saved another woman's life is never right. No matter if he is a terrorist, a civil, an italian, a hero, a criminal or an american; black, white or yellow. Italians didnt fight this war, you should have known this. Italians never killed a single Iraqi guy. But we've lost about 30 human lifes in Iraq, trying to help them. Doctors, journalists, Italian Police, Diplomats. And this is just another victim. They freed a journalist (leftwing anti-war, so now you know) who thanked Iraqi for her treatment while she was kidnapped as soon as she returned in Italy, this morning, and the second thing she said was to get out of Iraq cause Iraqi just want to be free from occupying forces. A strong political message against the war and pro-Iraqi. They didnt shot a Marine, man! They didnt shot people who fought the war against Iraqi. It was a Marine who shot them civils. They werent strapped, they were diplomats and members of SISME, like i said (our 007). And it's fucked up no matter from which perspective you see it. I understand you are sad about all the deaths of innocents.. well.. this one was just another innocent killed. There's nothing to laugh.
 

Don Rizzle

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2005, 03:57:54 AM »
if the americans were cooperating on the rescue mission then they are totally to blame for not communicating to the check point the Italian convoy was due to pass through.

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2005, 04:08:34 AM »
if the americans were cooperating on the rescue mission then they are totally to blame for not communicating to the check point the Italian convoy was due to pass through.

We're talking about 007's man, so they'll never admit it anyway. Both sides. Remember one of them got shot in the chest, but he refused to go to the Hospital cause he "doesnt exist" (if you know what i mean..) and we dont even know his name yet. We only know the name of the guy dead, cause he was the boss who directed all those missions, he was a diplomat, not just a 007. We will never know what really happened, cause it's all political now. When 007 are involved, it's always like that.
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shit! Americans shot an Italian hostage in Iraq. 1 dead, 3 injured
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2005, 04:51:58 AM »
SHOCKING NEWS!

Giuliana Sgrena's boyfriend just talked to the media. He said Giuliana is still recovering (she needs another surgery to remove a bullet), but she explained him what happened. She said they were 700 meters away from the Airport -just 15 seconds away with the car-, in a "supposed-to-be-safe" zone. They were talking live on the phone with Italian Ministry of Defence when the shit happened. Americans knew about the mission, and italians too, in fact an Airplane was ready to flight them back to Italy in the Airport. But something went wrong. After a curve, italians saw a big light and americans shooted 400 rifles on them. It wasnt a real check point, since nobody knew there was one over there (they moved it there some minutes before, you know.. sometimes they move their check points, expecially in the night). One man got killed trying to save the journalist, 3 others (including the hostage) got shot and injured. Americans approached their cars, confiscated their phones (they were still on the phone with the Ministry) and waited for more instructions several minutes. They didnt even sent the victims to the Hospital, since they didnt understand they were italians till after some minutes (wtf?). After that, they understood the mistake, and they sent the italians to the Hospital. It was too late for one of them. One of the refused to go to the Hospital, since he was a 007. Now Italian Police has opened an investigation cause Americans confiscated their phones and they didnt sent the victims to the Hospital as soon as possible. Plus italians were all experts who knew Iraq very well, so it's impossible they just didnt stop at a check point (they passed 2-3 other check points before that one). Now that's a really fucked up situation.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 05:05:34 AM by Antonio »
 

Thirteen

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2005, 09:35:30 AM »
cell phones have been used to remote activate bombs in iraq... i'd confiscate them too

one lesser known fact is once in awhile the US military will dial every cell phone in iraq randomly to try to make the bombs explode prematurely
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2005, 09:49:43 AM »
cell phones have been used to remote activate bombs in iraq... i'd confiscate them too

Yeah me too, probably. Obviously Americans did it cause they thought someone was attacking them. But it's fucked up what happened. Allies were there, shot and killed, trying to explain the situation. Terrible death. That's all.
 

Don Rizzle

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2005, 11:16:43 AM »
friendly fire is a mutha fucker americans killed more brits than the iraqi's did in both iraq wars

iraq would just get annexed by iran


That would be a great solution.  If Iran and the majority of Iraqi's are pleased with it, then why shouldn't they do it?
 

dexter

Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2005, 12:39:15 PM »
Piss poor training^^^^^^
Communications Leadership problems
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2005, 04:40:12 PM »


Medal Of Honor of the Italian Republic Nicola CALIPARI.
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2005, 07:28:33 AM »
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has challenged the U.S. account of a shooting incident that left her wounded and an Italian intelligence officer dead shortly after her release by Iraqi insurgents. U.S.-led multi-national forces said the car carrying Sgrena was speeding and that soldiers fired warning shots in an attempt to stop it, before opening fire. But the 56-year-old journalist, currently being treated for a shoulder injury in a Rome hospital, said the car was not speeding. She told Italian La 7 TV on Sunday "there was no bright light, no signal," according to The Associated Press. And in an article for Sunday's edition of her newspaper, Il Manifesto, she said the shooting, which occurred Friday as agents were taking her to the airport in Baghdad, recalled her captors' warning that "the Americans don't want you to return." Il Manifesto, a left-leaning newspaper that has long opposed the Iraq war, even accused U.S. forces on Saturday of "assassinating" Nicola Calipari, who was killed protecting Sgrena from U.S. gunfire. Sgrena's partner, Pierre Scolari, blamed the shooting on the U.S. government, even suggesting the incident was intentional. "I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone," he said, according to Reuters. Sgrena, who returned to Rome on Saturday, said she was doing well but was "upset" by the death of Calipari, who had led negotiations for the journalist's release. Two other agents were also wounded. Calipari's body arrived in Rome on Saturday night as top officials including Defense Minister Antonio Martino and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi stood by. Calipari's wife, mother and two children were also present. An autopsy was performed on Sunday. The ANSA news agency reported doctors as saying the 50-year-old agent was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly. The body lay in state at Rome's Vittoriano monument, and a state funeral was planned for Monday. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi said he would award Calipari the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

'Last breath'
Sgrena, who was kidnapped outside a mosque in Baghdad on February 4, said her captors treated her well and took her to meet the Italian security agents after blindfolding her, telling her, "don't give any signals of your presence with us, otherwise the Americans could intervene." She said she was in the car with the agents and heading for the airport, which was less than a mile away, when they approached the checkpoint. "I only remember fire," she wrote. "At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us." The driver began yelling that they were Italians, she wrote, and "Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately, I heard his last breath as he was dying on me." She said she remembered something her captors had told her: "They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me, but I had to be careful -- 'the Americans don't want you to go back.'" At the time, she said, "I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths."

The U.S. government has pledged a full investigation into the shooting incident and offered its condolences.
Multi-national forces have said troops tried to warn the driver of Sgrena's vehicle to stop using hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots in front of the car. The soldiers shot into the engine block when the driver did not stop, the forces said in a statement Friday. Italian magistrate Franco Ionta, however, said Sgrena, interviewed in her hospital room Saturday, gave a different version of events. "It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight," she told him. "We didn't know where the bullets were coming from. We had not met other checkpoints before. Our car was absolutely not traveling at high speed." Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint. The road where the incident took place is particularly dangerous, said CNN's Nic Robertson. Sgrena said she "risked everything" to challenge "the Italian government, who didn't want journalists to reach Iraq, and the Americans," who she said did not want the public to see "what really became of that country with the war, and notwithstanding that which they call elections." She said she told her captors they could not ask the Italian government to withdraw the 3,000 Italian troops from Iraq -- "their political go-between could not be the government but the Italian people, who were and are against the war."

Neither Italian nor American officials have revealed how Sgrena was freed, but there has been speculation about a possible ransom. One Iraqi lawmaker, Younadem Kana, told Belgian state TV Saturday he had "nonofficial" information that a $1 million (€760,000) ransom was paid, according to AP. Asked whether a ransom was paid, an Italian Cabinet minister said it was "very likely." "Moreover, it is largely preferable to pay an economic price than the price of a human life, or a political price that would consist of blackmail to pull out troops," Agriculture Minister Giovanni Alemanno told Corriere della Sera newspaper. The shooting prompted criticism from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support for the Iraq war. But officials with Italy's center right-government said the shooting would not affect support for the country's efforts to help secure postwar Iraq. "The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq," said Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri, quoted by the ANSA news agency.

CNN's Alessio Vinci and Elise Labott contributed to this report.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 07:36:11 AM by Antonio »
 

acbaylove

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Re: Shocking update on the Italian killed by Americans in Iraq.
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2005, 07:32:57 AM »
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Italians are celebrating the return of a reporter held captive by Iraqi insurgents for a month, but grieving over the killing by U.S. forces of a security officer who helped negotiate her release. Nicola Calipari, a veteran security agent who had previously aided the release of other Italian hostages, was shot dead while Giuliana Sgrena was being taken to an airport. Calipari's body arrived in Rome on Saturday night as top officials including Defense Minister Antonio Martino and Italian premier Silvio Berlusconi stood by. His coffin was wrapped in an Italian flag and was carried out of the military plane by a guard of honour. President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi held both hands up to the coffin, standing motionless in front of the body for almost two minutes before allowing it to be placed in a hearse, according to Reuters reports. The married father of two died Friday after the car he, Sgrena and two other agents were riding in was shot by U.S. forces at a checkpoint. Calipari was killed after he threw his body across Sgrena's to protect her, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said. Sgrena was struck in the left shoulder by shrapnel, and the two other agents were also wounded, he said. "Giuliana Sgrena, she is free," said the headline in Italy's leftist, antiwar Il Manifesto newspaper, where Sgrena works, but U.S. troops "assassinated her liberator." Another newspaper called Calipari an "007." The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq, and analysts said it could set off new protests in Italy, where tens of thousands have regularly demonstrated against the Iraq war. News of the shooting drew criticism from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support of the war. "Another victim of an absurd war," Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told the Apcom news agency, according to The Associated Press. Sgrena's partner said he could not fault the U.S. soldiers, telling Reuters they were probably "scared boys," and the blame lay with those who had sent them to Iraq. In a written statement, the U.S.-led Multi-National Forces said the shootings occurred when the vehicle carrying Sgrena, traveling at high speeds, "refused to stop at a checkpoint." "About 9 p.m. (1800 GMT), a patrol in western Baghdad observed the vehicle speeding towards their checkpoint and attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car. When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one." CNN's Nic Robertson said the coalition forces' rules of engagement permit them to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint. The road where the incident took place, near Baghdad's airport, was particularly dangerous, Robertson added. Sgrena, 56, landed in Rome on Saturday morning. A crowd milled around the plane as Sgrena's relatives and dignitaries, including Berlusconi, boarded the plane to greet her. A few moments later, she emerged, walking with assistance from two men, and was taken to a nearby ambulance.

U.S. condolences
President Bush called Berlusconi on Friday night to express his regrets about the shootings, and pledged a full investigation. Sgrena and one of the security agents, who was seriously injured, were taken to a U.S. military hospital in Iraq after the shootings. The other wounded agent was shot in the leg, and refused to be taken to a hospital, according to Italian news agencies. The identities of the two wounded agents were not released. Speaking from Iraq, Sgrena reportedly told Berlusconi's office she was "fine" and would have a light operation to remove the shrapnel from her shoulder. Upon her return, she was admitted to a Rome hospital and was also to face questioning from Italian investigators and prosecutors. In the wake of the shootings, Berlusconi called U.S. Ambassador Mel Sembler to his office for an explanation, and the men were to meet, said State Department spokeswoman Darla Jordan. She said Sembler offered "U.S. condolences and any assistance the U.S. can provide," as did Assistant Secretary of State William Burns in a call to the Italian ambassador to the United States, Sergio Vento. Berlusconi said Sembler would have to "clarify" the behavior of the troops. "Someone will have to take responsibility," the prime minister said. He said the two other agents in the car contacted his office after the incident. "They were in disbelief at the fatality at the end of a brilliantly concluded operation," Berlusconi said. "We were stone silent as we waited to hear of the rest of what took place." Also Saturday, Reporters Without Borders, the journalists' watchdog group, asked the United Nations to investigate the matter and "shed light on the circumstances" that led to the tragedy. Italian officials had worked to secure Sgrena's safe release from capture. They did not say how she was freed Friday. Sgrena was kidnapped February 4 -- one month to the day before her release -- outside a mosque in Baghdad. Later that month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life. Italians have held numerous candlelight vigils calling for her safe return. Sgrena's co-workers were celebrating news of her release when news came of the shootings, according to a CNN producer at the scene. Their mood was immediately dampened. Pope John Paul II sent two messages of condolences, one to Berlusconi and another to Calipari's family, the Vatican said, according to AP. The pope said he was "saddened at the tragic death" of Calipari, and called him a "faithful and heroic servant of the state, who, in carrying out the delicate mission that had been given to him, didn't hesitate to sacrifice his life."

CNN's Alessio Vinci and Elise Labott contributed to this report.


Italian President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi touches the coffin of Nicola Calipari in Rome late Saturday
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 07:34:35 AM by Antonio »