Author Topic: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True  (Read 844 times)

ARYC

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2005, 12:40:29 PM »
"fattak:
what's your position on a partial withdrawal to the borders vs a full withdrawal?  is a partial withdrawal satisfactory in your view?  (it doesn't sound like it, but i'm curious)"

we have waited what ? 20 some years? if this is a "true" 1st step in Syria's total withdrawal from Lebanon withing a reasonable timeline (before the elections) then , I'm ok with it. If it's another one of Syria's stalling moves then this time we won't fall for it and protests will continue. 

"what's your take on bashar al-assad?  since he's a much weaker leader than his father was, do you think he'll cave in to the pressure, or do you think he'll become more resolved and obstinate listening to the hardliners?"

he's a lot weaker than Hafez el-Assad , his brother was suppose to take his father's place but he died (while horseback riding i think) and Bachar was basically the replacement . A few days b4 the assassination i was thinking "u know what ? he hasn't done anything that's even remotely close to what his dad has done , maybe he's not so bad" then of course I realised that he hasn't done anything to make the situation better (keeping the security forces in place) not to mention the fact that Syria gets 5 billion dollars a year semi-illegally from Lebanon (which for Lebanon is a HUGE sum) etc .So yeah  don't really like the guy.
Will he cave? he will if he's smart , but the Ba'athist regime will fall in Syria , it's just a matter of time , so whatever he does , he's on borrowed time.

 "Fuck Bashir Gamayel. That is all."

I don't know why , but i smiled at that ....  He has blood on his hands like all the other war time leaders which is somehting i'm not proud of , but he has sacrificed and lost a lot for Lebanon (his 2 year old girl was killed in a car bomb intended for him)  , he's a true patriot and martyr for the Lebanese cause.
If it wasn't for him and men like him who stood up to the aggression of the Palestinians , Syrians and their allies in Lebanon , the christians of Lebanon would be living in refugee camps in Canada or something.
And if ur saying "fuck him" because "he was a traitor who collaborated with the imperial zionist enemy" or some bullshit like that ... then u don't deserve my time
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 12:50:09 PM by Fattak »


 

nibs

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2005, 04:08:49 PM »
O.G. Techniec:
2. Fattak is right, re: oppression of people leaves em not givin a fuck about what ever the intentions of the "liberator" are. Its the same reason Iraq hasnt dwelled into total anarchy, its the reason the Taliban fell so quickly, and it applies to Lebanon as well.


how is iraq outside the green zone?

and again, the lebanese opposition are being used as pawns to weaken syria.  why isn't there an equal amount of pressure being applied to israel to withdraw from the golan heights completely?

syria would be much more accepting of evacuating from lebanon if the had the golan heights returned and a peace agreement on that front.

this is a move to shift the balance of power in that region again and weaken syria. 

fattak:
Will he cave? he will if he's smart , but the Ba'athist regime will fall in Syria , it's just a matter of time , so whatever he does , he's on borrowed time.


bashar is trying to dance a fine line here with this pullback that he's announced. he's facing this pressure but has nothing to show for it if he caves.  if the ba'athist regime were to fall it surely would only fall to a military coup.  this would effectively supplant his own supporters that he's put in place since he assumed office, and lead to the hardliners ruling syria.  this doesn't seem like a desireable situation from the christian lebanese perspective. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2005, 04:21:32 PM by nibs »
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nibs

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2005, 04:20:28 PM »
Fattak:
If it wasn't for him and men like him who stood up to the aggression of the Palestinians , Syrians and their allies in Lebanon , the christians of Lebanon would be living in refugee camps in Canada or something.
And if ur saying "fuck him" because "he was a traitor who collaborated with the imperial zionist enemy" or some bullshit like that ... then u don't deserve my time


wait, weren't the syrians supporting the christian lebanese against the plo and muslim factions up until gamayel forged those close ties with israel?

surely he chose the wrong side there.
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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2005, 04:26:48 PM »

this is a move to shift the balance of power in that region again and weaken syria. 


Bingo.
 

ARYC

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2005, 11:40:51 PM »
"wait, weren't the syrians supporting the christian lebanese against the plo and muslim factions up until gamayel forged those close ties with israel?"

yes in 1976 when the muslims were against them (which is why they killed kamal junblat) the Syrians but after that the Syrians much, like today, started meddling and wanted more power than they have any right to have which led to the christians turning against them. Bachir saw that if Syria were to stay in Lebanon , Lebanon would lose it's independence because Lebanon is Syria's Kuwait (as in they want it to be part of their country).So he saw further then any other leaders saw at the time and when Lebanon and israel sign a peace treaty and the words "working with Israel" aren't so Taboo , the muslims will realise that he did it FOR Lebanon. Sure he did it for the christians 1st , but as he proved by refusing to sign  the treaty with Israel without consulting the Sunni prime minister , he did want to be a leader for all the Lebanese people.


"if the ba'athist regime were to fall it surely would only fall to a military coup.  this would effectively supplant his own supporters that he's put in place since he assumed office, and lead to the hardliners ruling syria.  this doesn't seem like a desireable situation from the christian lebanese perspective."

I'm not saying it'll be good for us , I'm just saying it'll happen , plus I don't know who these hardliners are , for all I know the CIA are telling them to advise Assad to stay in Lebanon to justify an attack , or even maybe Assad is telling them to say those things so he can look like a moderate .... who knows ?
whatever happens, like the motto says "wa nabka" (we stay)


"I just want to remind you, so that you can sleep better at night, that if you are so comfortable with America's occupation in Iraq of 150,000 troops then the Lebanese occupation is extremely mild in comparison, consisting of less than 15,000 troops" 

14 000 troops , more than 60 000 intelligence officers , and if u count the Lebanese security forces who are Syria's puppets u'd get a force of over 100 000 , also , consider the fact that Lebanon is maybe 10 times smaller than Iraq , and u don't have an occupation that's "extremely mild in comparison"


"And you claim without proof that Syria has tortured and oppressed Lebanese citizens, but I assure you with proof that America has made national headlines for it's torture and abuses of Iraqi citizens that surpasses the torture of Sadaam."

without proof ? do i have to call in those who had there nails pulled out by the syrians or is me saying "believe me they tortured Lebanese citisens" enough for you?
If u want MORE info on Syrian torture methods , plz use the link at the end of my sig , skip past the massacres and assassinations to the biggest paragraphe , that's the one on torture 
   


 

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2005, 01:25:26 PM »
There is no such thing as "your a Syrian", "your a Lebanese"... when you say There is nothing worthy of worship but Allah, and you testify to this with your heart, it erases nationalism, tribalism, and racism.  Allah says in the Noble Qu'ran, "And the believers are but a single brotherhood."  There is no Syria and Lebanon, these are unnatural borders, these are Muslim people, displaying their lack of love and trust for their brothers, and they need to deal with this problem as Muslims and not as nations and tribes.
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ARYC

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2005, 05:42:38 AM »
im a christian


 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2005, 11:33:46 AM »

first of all tech, deliver my pizza first and then talk...afgans arent even 2nd in line

 
Ok, Doggy, Ill deliver your pizza right away. Then maybe you can come up with something original.
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King Tech Quadafi

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2005, 11:37:57 AM »
O.G. Techniec:
2. Fattak is right, re: oppression of people leaves em not givin a fuck about what ever the intentions of the "liberator" are. Its the same reason Iraq hasnt dwelled into total anarchy, its the reason the Taliban fell so quickly, and it applies to Lebanon as well.


how is iraq outside the green zone?



Iraq outside the Green zone is actually decent, outside off the Sunni Triangle. The only place over run by anarchy is Al Anbar province. With the exception of flare ups in Mosul, the entire Kurdish north has been stable and experimenting with democracy for years now. At this point, the hatred of Saddam > the hatred of AMericans on the ground . That could change, but it hasnt yet.


And i said Fuck Bashir Gamayel because he has blood on his hands. And for you to conviniently ignore that and yet still praise him, reveals your biases which is natural. But the lebanese conflict is too complex to simply denounce based on affiliation (Phalange/Israel)
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

- Lewis Carroll
 

ARYC

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2005, 05:53:02 AM »
"And i said Fuck Bashir Gamayel because he has blood on his hands. And for you to conviniently ignore that and yet still praise him, reveals your biases which is natural. But the lebanese conflict is too complex to simply denounce based on affiliation (Phalange/Israel)"

no shit ! u mean a MILITIA LEADER in WARTIME has blood on his hands ?

yeah the guy has blood on his hands but what war time leader doesn't ? Junblat? Berri? Assad?Who? they were all ruthless  and wanted to impose themselves.
Innocents die , soldiers die that's just the nature of the beast. And if u don't get that then ur 1 lucky guy cause ur bubble hasn't been burst yet. 
Bachir Gemayel evolved with the conflict. He went from the militia leader who wanted to turn the mountain into a seperate state for the christians to a guy who wanted to be the president of all Lebanese people , and I honestly believe that he was the only one who could've controlled the situation when no1 else could.If it weren't for him how many more "Damours" would the christians have gone through? huh? how many more unarmed christian villages would've slaughtered by the PLO?
I'm not ignoring anything the guy has done , the good and the bad.I just think that the guy has done more good than bad for me and people like me , he and his men stood up for us in a way that no1 would've (see Zahle and Ashrafieh for proof .. although i do feel sorry for the truck loads of Syrian soldiers that died)




Also , when u talk about "blood on his hands" what events are u talking about ?
Franjieh's assassination? the Tigers getting squashed? what? 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 06:02:45 AM by Amin »


 

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2005, 04:03:44 PM »

first of all tech, deliver my pizza first and then talk...afgans arent even 2nd in line

 
Ok, Doggy, Ill deliver your pizza right away. Then maybe you can come up with something original.

I dont need to come up with anything original thats the thing, my presence is enough.
 

King Tech Quadafi

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2005, 06:42:03 PM »
^ I still love you Doggy
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

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Doggystylin

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Re: George W. Bush's Vision For a Democratic Middle East Is Coming True
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2005, 06:30:32 PM »
 :'(