Author Topic: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie  (Read 300 times)

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"When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« on: March 12, 2005, 11:20:12 PM »
That Will Smith movie was just some Hollywood project to make money.  The real Muhammad Ali film is the documentary "When We Were Kings".

I have a burnt cd, with the theme song from that movie on there, the song the Fugee's did, it's one of my favourite songs, everytime I here it, I think I got to see the movie.  Finally, I was sick last week, so I rented a few movies.  This documentary is a masterpiece, classic. 

I was suprised to see Don King back then, he promoted the Rumble In The Jungle fight, he's the one that put the whole event together, the movie showed everything, it even offered intelligent discussion and footage of Ziare's people and ruler at the time Mobutu(?)  Norman Mailer provided excellent commentary throughout.

ESPN did a nice piece on Ali during it's Greatest Athletes Special, but nothing on Muhammad Ali compares to this film.  If you never see anything on Muhammad Ali, see this film.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 06:19:28 AM by Safar, 1426 Years After Hijrah »
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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2005, 03:04:05 AM »
It's a really dope documentary, and I agree much better than the Will Smith starring feature film. It wasn't Spike Lee though, it was Leon Gast.

On The Edge of Insanity

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2005, 10:41:25 AM »
It's a really dope documentary, and I agree much better than the Will Smith starring feature film. It wasn't Spike Lee though, it was Leon Gast.

Thanks for the info, did Spike Lee produce it or play any hand in it besides providing commentary?

I think he was just commentary, doesn't list him on the dvd box as being anything else.

Trauma-san

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2005, 08:47:36 PM »
Infinite.  Think about this for a minute.  The entire movie features footage shot in the 70's, way before Spike Lee was around.  Do you think they were just shooting the documentary footage, in the 70's, and saving it for Spike to grow up, or something?

Another example of your fanaticism.


Anyways, you are correct in saying that it's an excellent movie.  It perfectly describes the significance of Muhammad Ali, and it's an excellent encapsulation of one of the most dramatic stories of all time, the defeat of the evil George Forman at the hands of the then thought to be past his prime Muhammad Ali. 

My dad was a huge Ali fan, and lived through that whole fight experience.  He used to talk about it all the time, one of the most impressive things he ever saw in his life.

You have to imagine the scene at the time... Ali was obviously great, and had already won (and been stripped) of the title.  He had several fights, and had beaten several opponents.  Joe Frazier had beaten Ali, and then along comes George Forman.  George Forman knocked Joe Frazier out in the first fucking round.  When Ali signed up to fight Forman, everybody thought Ali would be killed.  There was a lot at stake here.

Ali was notorious for running his mouth.  He had the greatest ego of all time, nobody has ever had an ego greater than Muhammad Ali's.  In most instances, his ego didn't cause him any trouble, because he could back up anything he said: he simply was the greatest of all time.  You have to imagine though, that Forman was just the one who could cast doubt on people's faith in Ali.  Forman was a monster, he's what nightmares were all about at the time.  He had beaten the living HELL out of everybody he'd fought, and like mentioned, he knocked out Joe Frazier, the man who had beaten Ali, in the FIRST ROUND.  The First Frieking Round! Everybody thought Foreman would kill Ali.  They thought, honestly (because my dad did, he literally thought this)... they thought that Ali had too much pride, and was only fighting for his pride.  They thought that Ali would get his ass kicked, and would be too prideful to throw in the towel, continue to get beat on by Foreman, and that Foreman might kill him in the ring... because they knew Ali would never give up, it was impossible for Ali to admit he lost or that he was losing the match.  Everybody loved Ali, and thought there was the potential for him to DIE in the ring.  They didn't even feel that he could win, it never crossed most people's minds... all they thought about was how bad Ali would get beat up.

To make matters worse, Ali had fought several matches recently before Foreman, and in every match, he just BARELY won.  It seemed like Ali was growing old, already headed down the other side of the mountain, and at each match, he'd show up overweight.  Some matches, he would be embarassingly out of shape, and barely scrape out a win against a competitor not even in his league.

My dad went to see it on closed-circuit broadcast, which in those days meant you would head to the local arena, and they would play it live on huge projection screens in the center of the arena floor... they did this all over the world.  Anyways, he paid to go, and was really afraid his favorite, Ali might get killed by Foreman.  He had bet on the match, and had bet on Ali, even though he thought he was sure to lose, just because Ali was his favorite, and he couldn't bring himself to bet against him.  He described to me dozens of times in his life the feeling he had, when he saw Ali get in the ring and take his robe off... gone was all the fat and extra weight of the fights before, Ali had apparently gotten serious, and had emerged from his robe like the true champion he was... lean, toned, and muscles rippling everywhere.  He always said that when he saw Ali take his robe off, he felt relieved, and for the first time thought Ali actually had a chance. 

The "Rope A Dope" thing was true genius, just plain, simple... a genius at work.  He had found Foreman's weakness... while Foreman was stronger than any boxer around, Ali knew that Foreman 1. had never fought a long match, because he knocked everybody out so fast, and 2. Foreman was full of rage, it leaked over into every aspect of his life... from his choice of manager, to the pit bull he took with him everywhere he went, the man was meaner than any boxer before him(until Iron Mike Tyson showed up 15 years later). So the Rope A Dope not only wore Foreman out, but it pissed him off, making him hit Ali even harder... the combination killed Foreman.  He beat himself up with those heavy gloves.  My dad said when he saw Ali doing it, he was scared shitless, he was just thinking "Oh my God Ali's not even hitting him, he's gonna get killed". 

If you watch the film, the Round before Ali knocks him out (I believe he knocked him out in the 7th, so look at the end of the 6th round).  Ali turns to Foreman, points at him, and says "Your Ass Is Mine, Nigger".   You can read it on his lips.   Foreman comes out, starts beating the shit out of Ali on the ropes again... makes one wild swing, Ali comes around, 1,2,3, hits him so hard, so fast, Foreman just goes stumbling.  Ali walks behind him, calm, collected, with his arm drawn back... one more punch cocked.... but he never throws it.  Foreman was already done, and reeling, Ali couldn't bring himself to hit Foreman again, even though Foreman without a doubt would have hit Ali on the way down. 

That's the difference between the two of them; or at least that WAS the difference between the two of them.  Foreman fought a few more times as an angry black man, and then became a Christian preacher for over a decade, had a huge family, and is now one of the most beloved boxers of all time; probably the second most beloved, the first most beloved being Muhammad Ali, who is of course a devout Muslim. 

What an amazing night in Zaire. 
 

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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2005, 06:28:26 AM »

Anyways, you are correct in saying that it's an excellent movie.  It perfectly describes the significance of Muhammad Ali, and it's an excellent encapsulation of one of the most dramatic stories of all time, the defeat of the evil George Forman at the hands of the then thought to be past his prime Muhammad Ali. 

My dad was a huge Ali fan, and lived through that whole fight experience.  He used to talk about it all the time, one of the most impressive things he ever saw in his life.

You have to imagine the scene at the time... Ali was obviously great, and had already won (and been stripped) of the title.  He had several fights, and had beaten several opponents.  Joe Frazier had beaten Ali, and then along comes George Forman.  George Forman knocked Joe Frazier out in the first fucking round.  When Ali signed up to fight Forman, everybody thought Ali would be killed.  There was a lot at stake here.

Ali was notorious for running his mouth.  He had the greatest ego of all time, nobody has ever had an ego greater than Muhammad Ali's.  In most instances, his ego didn't cause him any trouble, because he could back up anything he said: he simply was the greatest of all time.  You have to imagine though, that Forman was just the one who could cast doubt on people's faith in Ali.  Forman was a monster, he's what nightmares were all about at the time.  He had beaten the living HELL out of everybody he'd fought, and like mentioned, he knocked out Joe Frazier, the man who had beaten Ali, in the FIRST ROUND.  The First Frieking Round! Everybody thought Foreman would kill Ali.  They thought, honestly (because my dad did, he literally thought this)... they thought that Ali had too much pride, and was only fighting for his pride.  They thought that Ali would get his ass kicked, and would be too prideful to throw in the towel, continue to get beat on by Foreman, and that Foreman might kill him in the ring... because they knew Ali would never give up, it was impossible for Ali to admit he lost or that he was losing the match.  Everybody loved Ali, and thought there was the potential for him to DIE in the ring.  They didn't even feel that he could win, it never crossed most people's minds... all they thought about was how bad Ali would get beat up.

To make matters worse, Ali had fought several matches recently before Foreman, and in every match, he just BARELY won.  It seemed like Ali was growing old, already headed down the other side of the mountain, and at each match, he'd show up overweight.  Some matches, he would be embarassingly out of shape, and barely scrape out a win against a competitor not even in his league.

My dad went to see it on closed-circuit broadcast, which in those days meant you would head to the local arena, and they would play it live on huge projection screens in the center of the arena floor... they did this all over the world.  Anyways, he paid to go, and was really afraid his favorite, Ali might get killed by Foreman.  He had bet on the match, and had bet on Ali, even though he thought he was sure to lose, just because Ali was his favorite, and he couldn't bring himself to bet against him.  He described to me dozens of times in his life the feeling he had, when he saw Ali get in the ring and take his robe off... gone was all the fat and extra weight of the fights before, Ali had apparently gotten serious, and had emerged from his robe like the true champion he was... lean, toned, and muscles rippling everywhere.  He always said that when he saw Ali take his robe off, he felt relieved, and for the first time thought Ali actually had a chance. 

The "Rope A Dope" thing was true genius, just plain, simple... a genius at work.  He had found Foreman's weakness... while Foreman was stronger than any boxer around, Ali knew that Foreman 1. had never fought a long match, because he knocked everybody out so fast, and 2. Foreman was full of rage, it leaked over into every aspect of his life... from his choice of manager, to the pit bull he took with him everywhere he went, the man was meaner than any boxer before him(until Iron Mike Tyson showed up 15 years later). So the Rope A Dope not only wore Foreman out, but it pissed him off, making him hit Ali even harder... the combination killed Foreman.  He beat himself up with those heavy gloves.  My dad said when he saw Ali doing it, he was scared shitless, he was just thinking "Oh my God Ali's not even hitting him, he's gonna get killed". 

If you watch the film, the Round before Ali knocks him out (I believe he knocked him out in the 7th, so look at the end of the 6th round).  Ali turns to Foreman, points at him, and says "Your Ass Is Mine, Nigger".   You can read it on his lips.   Foreman comes out, starts beating the shit out of Ali on the ropes again... makes one wild swing, Ali comes around, 1,2,3, hits him so hard, so fast, Foreman just goes stumbling.  Ali walks behind him, calm, collected, with his arm drawn back... one more punch cocked.... but he never throws it.  Foreman was already done, and reeling, Ali couldn't bring himself to hit Foreman again, even though Foreman without a doubt would have hit Ali on the way down. 

That's the difference between the two of them; or at least that WAS the difference between the two of them.  Foreman fought a few more times as an angry black man, and then became a Christian preacher for over a decade, had a huge family, and is now one of the most beloved boxers of all time; probably the second most beloved, the first most beloved being Muhammad Ali, who is of course a devout Muslim. 

What an amazing night in Zaire. 

Nice commentary.  Actually I remember reading your commentary on this movie a couple years ago when the Will Smith movie came out.  Your praise of the movie another reason I wanted to rent this movie. 

I still don't get the rope-a-dope thing though.  I don't know enough about boxing.  I don't see how this worked.  It seemed like he was just a sitting duck, getting the crap beat out of him.  Can you explain the rope-a-dope technique?  Do boxers generally use this technique that often?
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Trauma-san

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2005, 06:46:32 AM »
George Forman hit really hard, he was a huge man, and beat the SHIT out of anybody he got in the ring with.  If you tried to fight him (which Joe Frazier had done), he would beat your ass.  He'd hit you so hard in the stomach, one punch would knock you down.  If you were trying to punch him, and he got lucky, and hit you with 1 punch in the face, it might knock you out.  That's what Ali was up against... Foreman had already knocked out many, many boxers in the first round! 

Side note: When Foreman came back into boxing in the 90's, he was well into his 40's, and no longer the tough, toned monster he was when he fought Ali.  He was even flabby; overweight, and an old man.  I once saw a fight, I swear to God, he walked in the ring (remember, in the 90's, when he was in his mid 40's)... he walked into the ring, an OLD MAN!... walked up to the chump fighting him, hit the guy square in the face with a left jab, took a step beside the guy (almost like he was just walking past him), and then brought a crashing right hand down on top of the guys head, knocked the dude flat the fuck out in the middle of the ring, two punches, and the match was over in about 4 seconds.  I think (although I'm not sure) that holds the record for quickest match.  ... and that was when he was an old man.

Anyways, Ali knew Foreman hit really, really, really hard... so he knew you'd be an idiot to try and box the guy, because if he hit you just a couple times it'd knock you out.  So when Ali trained, he would have his sparring partners work his stomach, and just beat the hell out of him, while he tried to protect himself the best he could.  When Ali got into the ring with Foreman, he knew Foreman had an attitude, and would get really angry if Ali wouldn't fight him... so he just layed up against the ropes, and protected his body.  Ali had trained so well to resist bodyblows, that Foreman started beating on Ali's stomach, and the sides of his arms, protecting his face, and it didn't hurt Ali...if Ali had tried to punch Foreman, Foreman might have got lucky and hit Ali off guard, or maybe even got a good punch into his jaw or something, and could have possibly won the fight.  Instead, Ali just layed there, letting Foreman beat the hell out of his protected body.  Ali was so conditioned, you could have hit him in the stomach for 3 hours and not hurt him.  Ali later commented that Foreman didn't hit as hard as he thought he would, that a white guy named Ken Norton was the hardest hitting guy he had ever fought.  Anyways.

Foreman was so pissed, in the ring, that Ali wouldn't fight, he beat the hell out of Ali, although it was to no avail, because Ali was so protected.  Foreman wore himself out; since he'd knocked so many people out in the first round or two, he wasn't used to fighting a long match, so by the time the 6th or 7th round rolled around, Foreman was worn slap the hell out!  If you'll watch, look how slow he's moving in the last round, he can barely swing his arms.  Foreman swings at Ali... clumsily... Ali, the greatest of all time, ducks back, bounces off the ropes, here come the arms, 1,2,3, he hits him with three punches so fast Foreman didn't even know where the hell he was, and just like that, TAKES Foreman's heavyweight title from him.  It's probably the most beautiful fight scene ever, watch it again... Ali just leannnnns back, the punch from Foreman misses, and then Ali just stings him, as he bounces off of the ropes behind him.  Nobody could believe it after he won, it was an incredibly intelligent way to fight. 
 

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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2005, 08:13:00 AM »
do you think tyson in his prime could beat ali in his prime? i havnt watched a lot of ali fights so im jsut curious.
 

Trauma-san

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2005, 08:30:31 AM »
There's absolutely no way Mike Tyson could have beaten Muhammad Ali in his prime.  Muhammad had the total package, he was intelligent so knew how to fight, he was lightning fast, which is rare for a heavyweight, and he hit hard as hell, even though he wasn't huge.  He also had a peculiar habit of moving his head back, when he saw a punch coming.  If you watch Muhammad fight, when somebody hit him in the head, they never landed a good blow, because Ali would move his head back away from the fist, so even if they hit him, it'd just be glancing.  He didn't have any weaknesses, either, like a glass jaw or anything (After the rumble in the jungle, somebody figured out Foreman's weakness was his jaw, that's why he never went on to much after that fight).  On top of that, Muhammad was a much bigger man than Tyson, who's weakness was always that he was kind of short.  Ali would whip Mike Tyson's ass in a heartbeat. 
 

Woodrow

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2005, 10:11:47 AM »
LMAO at finite editing his post to make him look like less of a moron.
 

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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2005, 10:20:17 AM »
Trauma, what do you make of Don King?  He is all over that documentary.  Until watching that documentary, I had no idea that he played such a large role in making that fight happen.  Had it not been for Don King, the greatest fight in history may not have ever happen.  I mean, you can not talk about a better enviroment and set up for a fight.  Ali, the Pan-Africanist goes back to Africa, to fight for the heavy wieght championship.  

In the documentary, Don King appeared politically intelligent, he made scathing critisisms of the US government, and he was very much for the upliftment of disenfrachised blacks.  Today, he is known for being a man who exploits black athletes, he is a part of the Republican party, and he's always waving an American flag and saying "only in America".    Today, the media laughs at him and his quotes, he's almost treated like some kind of mascot.

So anyway, what do you make of this guy Don King?  After watching the documentary, it gave me a little respect for him, for what he did in putting that event together.  



...... also I think one of the reasons Foreman lost, was that Ali psychologically defeated him.  Even before the fight had started, Ali had thoroughly humiliated Foreman infront of his African brothers and sisters.  In the documentary, Foreman kept saying, "And tell the African people that that hurts my feelings when everywhere I go they say, Foreman, kill him!  I want the African people to know that I love them, they are my brothers!"  He was clearly hurt by the hate he recieved from his own people.  

....... also, one more thing, Formeman's story is an interesting one as well.  He said, along with the Ali fight, there was one event that hurt him more than any event in his carear.  He won the gold medal in the Olympics, and upon defeating his openent he waved the American flag in the middle of the ring.  He was elated, it was the happiest moment of his life, he had just won the gold medal, so he was celebrating, waving the American flag.  When he came home all of his people hated on him everywhere he went, for waving the American flag after his victory.  He said it crushed him, because they  ruined the memory of the happiest moment of his life.--  Kind of sad.
    
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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2005, 12:55:16 PM »
Ali is the man, greatest boxer of all time hands down.  i needa check this movie out
Oh I like this one... One dog goes one way, the other dog goes the other way, and this guy's sayin', "Whadda ya want from me?

 

Trauma-san

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 08:45:41 PM »
Don King is a genius.  Unfortunately, he's the mad scientist type.  He's about the biggest scumbag walking the face of the earth.  I'll tell you all you need to know about Don King in one little story.


When King was young, just getting into starting his career and things (and don't be fooled; his career isn't boxing promotion, his career is making money however he can make it)... a guy borrowed 50 bucks from him.  The guy never paid King back, after a few attempts to collect the money, King bumped into the guy in a bar with some of his thugs.  King beat him to the ground, and was stomping the guy in the face, the guy said "O.K., O.K., I'll pay you the money" and King kept stomping on him, until he killed him.  The last words the guy ever said were "I'll pay you the money".  King went to jail for about 3 years, but the judge had amazingly reduced the sentence from Murder to Manslaughter.  Everybody assumes he was paid off.

He killed another man one time, too, who was trying to rob him, but I guess you can't totally blame him for that.  He's long been known to take advantage of all of his fighters, as well, everybody knows he bilked Tyson out of everything he earned, and today Mike Tyson's bankrupt.  Who knows how much money he stole over the years from Ali. 

Don King's one of those guys that's fun to watch on t.v., and maybe even get a little excited when you see him somewhere... I guess it's even alright to consider him 'cool' because of his incredible (really, above nearly everyone) amount of charisma... he's a modern day P.T. Barnum... but in the end, he's an evil man who I wouldn't put above anything.  He'd kill his own mother if the insurance policy was high enough. 
 

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Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2005, 09:00:25 AM »
I always thought a few of Ali's fights were fixed to keep him strong and help the boxing industry make money. That guy grabbed on to his opponent so often with out any penalty it was disgusting to watch. When he fought Chuvallo and was beaten so bad he had to go into an emergency room after the fight while Chuvallo went out dancing with his wife, it was rigged judges. When he fought Frazier and he couldn't even stand for the last round and would have lost buy Frazier's corner through in the towel, it was probably fixed. When he beat Foreman, I always thought it was either a payout to George or a doping of the water. Never in boxing history do you get such an extreme upset with out a rematch, unless the boxer goes to Jail like Tyson did. Foreman and Ali was in 1974. Foreman boxed until '77. Why in 3 years would he not get a rematch? Because I think he was bad for business and tyhe promoters knew. Boxing has always been a dirty business. All you need is the ability to draw money and the right people backing you and you'll be a champion. It's not too different than pro wrestling in the 40s and 50s. Ali was good for buiness, George wasn't. Not until he came back as the charasmatic old timer in the late 80s.

Personally, I'm not sure how many people could beat a mid 90s Lennox Lewis. I'd bet my life that he'd destroy Ali in any kind of fight.

 

Nima - Dubcnn.com

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2005, 10:32:41 AM »
Ken Norton was the guy who broke Ali's jaw in a fight.

Ali is the GOAT though.. It's funny, my dad used to tell me about him all the time, my parents would have fights because my mom hates violent sports.

My dad had to wait till I was 8 (i think) till he was allowd to show me all the fights. He had like 10 VHS tapes full of fights and all he sat down with me a couple weekends in a row and told me the history of boxing. Ali was a HERO in Iran. My entire family was crying when Joe Frazier beat him.

 

Trauma-san

Re: "When We Were Kings" is the real Muhammad Ali movie
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2005, 03:29:14 PM »
I always thought a few of Ali's fights were fixed to keep him strong and help the boxing industry make money. That guy grabbed on to his opponent so often with out any penalty it was disgusting to watch. When he fought Chuvallo and was beaten so bad he had to go into an emergency room after the fight while Chuvallo went out dancing with his wife, it was rigged judges. When he fought Frazier and he couldn't even stand for the last round and would have lost buy Frazier's corner through in the towel, it was probably fixed. When he beat Foreman, I always thought it was either a payout to George or a doping of the water. Never in boxing history do you get such an extreme upset with out a rematch, unless the boxer goes to Jail like Tyson did. Foreman and Ali was in 1974. Foreman boxed until '77. Why in 3 years would he not get a rematch? Because I think he was bad for business and tyhe promoters knew. Boxing has always been a dirty business. All you need is the ability to draw money and the right people backing you and you'll be a champion. It's not too different than pro wrestling in the 40s and 50s. Ali was good for buiness, George wasn't. Not until he came back as the charasmatic old timer in the late 80s.

Personally, I'm not sure how many people could beat a mid 90s Lennox Lewis. I'd bet my life that he'd destroy Ali in any kind of fight.



LOL @ your entire post.  (like usual)