Author Topic: another Christian reads the Quran  (Read 445 times)

Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2005, 11:23:48 PM »
You cant judge  Prophet Muhamad for having more than one wife because almost ALL of the  Old testament prophets had MORE THAN ONE WIFE!
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rafsta

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2005, 01:40:17 AM »
i'm talkin about the new testament...

thats the whole reason why Jesus came, adultery, thiefs and bullshit was aplenty.
 

Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2005, 07:15:10 PM »
Captain that was not my point. It is the fact that having more than one wife dosen't nessesarily exclude you from prophet status if it did then would have to throw out over half of the bible because many prophets had more than one wife. Even if Jesus bevieved in one wife, GOD has used polygamists in the past so MAYBE he wouldn't be opposed to using one again.
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rafsta

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2005, 04:35:35 AM »
where in the bible does it say the prophets had more than one wife ? i dont remember the prophets even having one wife...

and what is a polygamist ?
 

Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2005, 02:23:04 AM »
Abraham is one of the most important prophets in the bible OT/NT and the Quran
In Genesis Chapt 16:3 Sarah abrahams wifey gives her Egyptain maidservent to Abraham to be his 2nd wifey.
The Reason why Abraham is so important in the bible and Quran is that Prophets, according to the bible and Quran, can only come through Abrahams family line.Genesis chapters 15-17
The hebrew Nation are issacs children from Abrahams union with sarah.
The arab Nation are ishmeals children from Abrahams union with Hagar.
Jesus is a descendant of issac which gives him prophet or messiah status by birthright.
although a covenant was made with the jews, if they failed to follow through with their end of the bargan, God still has to honor his promise to abraham by having a covanant with his descendants, which would be the Arabs by default. and prophet muhammad is a descendant of ishmeal. you dont have to believe me but you would be better of to study it for yourself instead of making blanket statements about religions. I my self am not of any religious faith in particular but I dont see one as better than the other because all prophets are different members of abrahams family anyways, and God promised abraham many nations and tribes through his name (Jew,Christian,Islam) so just follow the one that u believe the best way u can.

solomon had 700 wives
genesis 5:19 lemech 2 wives
genesis 29 Jacob has 2 sisters for wifeys, racheal and leah
there are more examples but not important.
polygamy is being married to more than one partner.
 
 
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rafsta

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2005, 03:13:14 AM »
Abraham is one of the most important prophets in the bible OT/NT and the Quran
In Genesis Chapt 16:3 Sarah abrahams wifey gives her Egyptain maidservent to Abraham to be his 2nd wifey.
The Reason why Abraham is so important in the bible and Quran is that Prophets, according to the bible and Quran, can only come through Abrahams family line.Genesis chapters 15-17
The hebrew Nation are issacs children from Abrahams union with sarah.
The arab Nation are ishmeals children from Abrahams union with Hagar.
Jesus is a descendant of issac which gives him prophet or messiah status by birthright.
although a covenant was made with the jews, if they failed to follow through with their end of the bargan, God still has to honor his promise to abraham by having a covanant with his descendants, which would be the Arabs by default. and prophet muhammad is a descendant of ishmeal. you dont have to believe me but you would be better of to study it for yourself instead of making blanket statements about religions. I my self am not of any religious faith in particular but I dont see one as better than the other because all prophets are different members of abrahams family anyways, and God promised abraham many nations and tribes through his name (Jew,Christian,Islam) so just follow the one that u believe the best way u can.

solomon had 700 wives
genesis 5:19 lemech 2 wives
genesis 29 Jacob has 2 sisters for wifeys, racheal and leah
there are more examples but not important.
polygamy is being married to more than one partner.
 
 

interestin stuff, yeh i realise i need to study it for myself.
 

Shallow

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2005, 07:13:42 AM »

Jesus is a descendant of issac which gives him prophet or messiah status by birthright.
 
 


This one always gets me. Jesus was not a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, or David; Joseph was. The New Testament clearly states that Joseph was not the father of Jesus, merely the husband of Mary, but "they had no union until after she gave birth to a son. No one really ever explained Mary's family tree, but it really doesn't matter, because Jesus was born of the holy spirit as far as Christian's are concerned. And his stance on monogamy is quite clear; one woman and one man come together and become one being, unseparable by man. Divorce is a bit of a tricky one; in Mark it states that once you take the vows you stick to them no matter what and divorce is not acceptable by any means, however in Matthew it states that you can divorce if your spouse cheats on you. Some believe that this was added in Matthew years later by the church, and was never written by Matthew himself, while others believe that Matthew put it together himself based on various teachings of Jesus. Very few believe that Jesus himself said it, but who knows? The bottom line is don't cheat on your spouse. As for the whole polygamy thing; I try and use logic and figure that if Man A and Woman B become one being then that same Man A cannot become one being with another woman since he is already one being with another woman. If you disagree then so be it.
 

Thirteen

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2005, 08:20:48 AM »
Islam is logical and practical and the life of a Muslim is one that can be lived without hypocrisy. 


once again, there's nothing Logical about religions

and why aren't you trying to have that kind of life without hypocrisy you hypocritical crazy ass cracker?

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Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2005, 11:34:48 AM »
the very 1st chapter and very 1st verse of the new testament says "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

If Jesus was not a descendant of Abraham then that means that GOD never fufilled His promise to Abraham through Isreal, and according to the new testament the Jews fell out of favor with GOD, so that would mean that the Muslims are right and God is using Ishmael's descendants to propragate His will.

This is not my view, but according to ur post this is what it would mean, Holy Spirit or no Holy Spirit.
God does not lie and did not lie to abraham.

Matthew 19: 5 is NOT A COMMANDMENT against multiple wives. It is a commandment against divorce, if you take it out of context u could reason that it means one wife, but I doubt that thats what Jesus was saying at that time. So it still does not bar the possibility of Muhammads Prophethood.
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Shallow

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2005, 01:09:17 PM »
the very 1st chapter and very 1st verse of the new testament says "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

If Jesus was not a descendant of Abraham then that means that GOD never fufilled His promise to Abraham through Isreal, and according to the new testament the Jews fell out of favor with GOD, so that would mean that the Muslims are right and God is using Ishmael's descendants to propragate His will.

This is not my view, but according to ur post this is what it would mean, Holy Spirit or no Holy Spirit.
God does not lie and did not lie to abraham.

Matthew 19: 5 is NOT A COMMANDMENT against multiple wives. It is a commandment against divorce, if you take it out of context u could reason that it means one wife, but I doubt that thats what Jesus was saying at that time. So it still does not bar the possibility of Muhammads Prophethood.


God may not lie, but Moses and other prophets may have lied, gotten it wrong, or added there own views. Jesus himself said Moses would allow certain things because he felt the people weren't ready for some truths. How can Jesus be the son of God and the Son of Joseph? You don't have to answer that, I'll let Jesus answer it for you;


(From Matthew 22)
41)While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42)"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
      "The son of David," they replied.
43)He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44)" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
   until I put your enemies
      under your feet." 
45)If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"
46)No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.




Since there wasn't a Pharisee in that land that could properly refute Jesus's claims, I doubt you can.



As for my thoughts on polygamy; like I said before I'm just ttrying to use logic to interpret that Jesus didn't consider it possible. If when you marry you and your wife become one being, then how can you become another being with another woman. How can one man be two beings? I just don't get it. This doesn't prove that Jesus was against it. It's just my perspective. The only real problem I have with polygamy is the sexism. Why is it that in some muslim and mormon areas it is okay for a man to have multiple wives, but unheard of for a woman to have multiple husbands?
 

rafsta

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2005, 01:44:25 PM »
^^^ youre a genius man  :sign_werd:
 

Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2005, 04:38:53 AM »
If the Moses and the other prophets may have lied, gotten it wrong, or added their own views, then that means that THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW GOD, beacause both Jesus, and God of the old testament used prophets or disciples (imperfect humans) to give us a glimpse into the nature of God. 

So Quoting verses is irrelevant, because u know, the prophets might have lied again.

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Shallow

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2005, 06:34:05 AM »
If the Moses and the other prophets may have lied, gotten it wrong, or added their own views, then that means that THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW GOD, beacause both Jesus, and God of the old testament used prophets or disciples (imperfect humans) to give us a glimpse into the nature of God. 

So Quoting verses is irrelevant, because u know, the prophets might have lied again.




The difference is that the Gospels use quotes from Jesus, while the Torah and other books of the Old Testament use the words of the prophets. Now the letters of Paul on the other hand I do believe contain things Jesus never would have said. Moses was a leader, he had to lead his people and keep them in line. Matthew Mark, Luke, and John were merely followers who wanted to spread the good word. The fact that all 4 books are similar depite being written at different places and times shows me enough to make me believe they weren't lying.

And furthermore whether the quote I used was a lie or not irrelevant because you still can't answer the question; if David calls the Messiah Lord how can it be his son? Does it make sense for a father to bow down to his son?
 

Crown

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2005, 08:34:44 PM »
First off HOMEBOY I didn't say that I could not answer Ur Question Because IT IS WHAT IT IS : If Jesus is not of the blood of Abraham he aint the messiah Point Blank. 
Jesus has to be the son of Abraham to fufill the prophesy the GOD promised to Abraham.

Jesus is The SON OF MAN (physically Abraham) and THE SON OF GOD (spiritually GOD)

And ur theory on the Apostles and the gospels aint right and exact either because Luke and if I not mistaken Mark NEVER EVEN SEEN JESUS they was some of Pauls disciples i know for a fact that Luke was a Doctor and Jesus didn't kick it with the upper class folks. so u cant say that the OT is less factual than the NT because its all heresay anyway. The New testament was not put together until the council of nice in the year 325a.d.
300 YEARS AFTER THE APOSTLES WAS DEAD,  & all of the contradicting Gospels were burned. (thats why they all say the same thing)
DONT BELIEVE ME HOMIE ITS AN ACTUAL FACTUAL HISTORICAL FACT! CHECK IT OUT FOR YOUR OWN SELF! 
In all of my post I NEVER took sides because its all GOOD with GOD on MINES, but if U don't know NOTHING except what youve been BRAINWASHED with don't dis Muslims for the same thing. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT. Abraham is the Key ALL 3 of the great monotheistic religions JEWS, CHRISTIAN,AND MUSLIMS should be able to work together as ONE under GOD.
 I am sure that if someone is born in the middle east and is a born of another religion as long as they follow their laws TRUTHFULLY GOD will accept them.  I am NOT their judge AND NEITHER ARE YOU.
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Shallow

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Re: another Christian reads the Quran
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2005, 01:04:34 PM »
First off HOMEBOY I didn't say that I could not answer Ur Question Because IT IS WHAT IT IS : If Jesus is not of the blood of Abraham he aint the messiah Point Blank. 
Jesus has to be the son of Abraham to fufill the prophesy the GOD promised to Abraham.

Jesus is The SON OF MAN (physically Abraham) and THE SON OF GOD (spiritually GOD)

And ur theory on the Apostles and the gospels aint right and exact either because Luke and if I not mistaken Mark NEVER EVEN SEEN JESUS they was some of Pauls disciples i know for a fact that Luke was a Doctor and Jesus didn't kick it with the upper class folks. so u cant say that the OT is less factual than the NT because its all heresay anyway. The New testament was not put together until the council of nice in the year 325a.d.
300 YEARS AFTER THE APOSTLES WAS DEAD,  & all of the contradicting Gospels were burned. (thats why they all say the same thing)
DONT BELIEVE ME HOMIE ITS AN ACTUAL FACTUAL HISTORICAL FACT! CHECK IT OUT FOR YOUR OWN SELF! 
In all of my post I NEVER took sides because its all GOOD with GOD on MINES, but if U don't know NOTHING except what youve been BRAINWASHED with don't dis Muslims for the same thing. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT. Abraham is the Key ALL 3 of the great monotheistic religions JEWS, CHRISTIAN,AND MUSLIMS should be able to work together as ONE under GOD.
 I am sure that if someone is born in the middle east and is a born of another religion as long as they follow their laws TRUTHFULLY GOD will accept them.  I am NOT their judge AND NEITHER ARE YOU.


1) The way I see it the loophole is that because Jesus was part of a human family headed by a direct descendant of Abraham. It's obvious in the scriptures that Jesus was not born of Joseph's DNA. If you belive otherwise then so be it.

2) I didn't quote Luke, or Mark for that matter. I quoted Matthew. Furthermore let me tell you how I see it; I read the bible, bot hnew and old and I look for things that don't seem right, like being able to stone your wife, or calling gays evil, and see that as being added by the prophets or apostles to appease the public and maintain control. When I read the gospels I don't see those things. Name me one thing that Jesus said according to the quotes that seems immoral or just plain stupid and I'll back off.

3) Yes the bible was put together after 300 AD, but that doesn't mean it's been changed so much. Many of the apostles died well before they had a chance to write the gospel down, like Peter who's Gospel would have easily been the most important historically. Phillip's is incomplete in the sense there are too many holes in it, meaning  no one can properly read it. There may have been a Gospel of Mary Magdelene, which I have no problem accepting, but for obvious reasons I could see why Rome in 300 AD wouldn't use a book written by a woman. I don't think any of them were burned, probably just not added in, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're all sitting in the Vatican as we speak. Keep in mind 99% of Christians couldn't write their own names, much less read Greek. Also, please don't state that the rest of the Gospels contradicted the 4 that were used as a fact, because in order to call it one you'd have to actually read those gospels and I'm sure you haven't.

4) Please actually read my posts as they are and don't add in what you think I'm implying. I never in this thread put down any Muslims or implied that any of them were going to hell. I am hardly a brainwashed Christian. I don't go to church for philosophical reasons and I take everything I read in the Bible with a grain of salt. The only reason I don't believe the 4 Gospels have been altered in their message is because I don't see anything morally wrong in them, and if the Vatican were to have changed them why wouldn't they have changed them more? Why wouldn't they quote Jesus as saying it's not okay to be gay, or "if you go to War in my name and die you go straight to Heaven"? Couldn't they just have added all this stuff in when they first made the Bible? Why keep a bible with 4 books that the church itself blatantly contradicts everyday?

5) As for my thoughts on heaven and hell philosophically; I admit to not actually knowing anything, just like everyone else doesn't "know" anything. I strongly believe in the Trinity and in God being accessible through 3 entities for a very simple reason; I don't believe anyone is going to hell because of the way they worship or believe. I believe in the father, the son, and the holy spirit as ways of getting into heaven. Whether you believe in, God and God alone, God through Jesus, or the greater good by listening to your heart (the holy spirit). As stated many times in every scripture there is only one God, and I don't dispute that. I just feel you can get to God through him, his son, or his gift to mankind. In short I don't think only Christians go to heaven.