Author Topic: Really, is an Iraqi police officer any different than an American troop?  (Read 179 times)

King Tech Quadafi

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what it comes down to is selective memory and using facts of convinience

i make no stand on this lil bickering

but if there was no iraq invasion there would be no insurgents attackin children and all this chaos.

some people just cant forget that the americans started this shit. they rightly see the invasion as the focal point

some hypocrites conviniently forget the invasion and want to judge these insurgents solely on their actions, which u cant, because u need to recognize what precipitated these actions.

as for the insurgents....they constitute such a wide variety of individuals and causes, it is useless to lump them together
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

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hope glimmers

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i was not fogetting the invasion, but who inspired the invasion?.. bush did, and what was my point, my words just got all jumbled up.  i mean a buch of soldiers didny just up and say, hey i wanna go kill people.  they were ordered to, by who you ask, well let me tell ya,  bush and congress were the ones who approved the war and started the whole war.  i dont know who has seen when micheal moore went with a military recruiter to get congress to put their sons or daughters in the military, because, now im not sure, but i know it was under 5, but i think it was two people in the house of reps, and congress all together who had a child in the military.  i just think that the government would be more cautious if they knew it would be their child over there getting killed so bush can impress his daddy., but that wasnt what i was getting at.  i have lots of friends and family in iraq, and none of them want to go at all, they dont wanna go fight a cause they dont believe in, but they do it for the safety of their families, because yes, soldiers too have little children, so why would they willingly shoot a child.... they wouldnt.  i see the war as bush using the soldiers as marionnettes to do his dirty work.  why dont we get bush on the front lines, oh wait... then who is the mastermind (haha yeah right) that will run america.... lets enlist a pre-schooler, they seem to know about the same amount of knowledge.
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Woodrow

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LMAO!!!!!!!!

Damn... You are so brainwashed man, you have totally lost your mind!!!!!!  You think they do it for money?!!!!!  HAHAHAA!!!!   Unbelievable!!   Yeah, the insurgents are really living it up hiding out in swamps, farms and deserts having bombs dropped on their heads...... they are on ballin status, making it big in the prisons of Abu Graib and Gauntanamo Bay!.... this is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said. 

Iraq has a smash-hit television show: "Terrorism in the Hands of Justice." The hour-long episodes without commercials are shown six nights per week on a government-owned, US-sponsored station.

I watched an episode with nine Iraqi translators working for the US Army. The translators say they "love the show," "watch it every night," and that Iraqis "downtown" chatter every morning about the latest episodes.

The format is simple: Captured insurgents start by admitting to crimes, such as killing Americans or Iraqi civilians. The insurgents also admit that they have not committed the attacks because of religion or national defense, but because their families are threatened, or that they are paid for the attacks, or both.

Some admit to taking the money from attacks, then to getting drunk or hiring prostitutes.   The suspects on the episode I watched had not yet been sentenced. This situation can vault the mind's eye to disturbing vistas about the state of "civil rights" here. Yet Iraq is at war with itself, and justice in this area of the world is as far behind, by comparison, as are their non-existent space programs. For any country not at war, the idea of forcing suspects onto television—before being sentenced—is far beyond the boundary of mere "wrong." But I walked among the smoking debris of yet another car bomb a couple days ago. Civil rights require that most people respect the civilization enough to stop those who do not. Some folks in Europe and America are saying that the show is a travesty of civil rights. They are right. Better ideas are welcome.

If the television program is a Psyop ploy, it seems to be working. The episodes have so angered many Iraqis that tips to authorities are radically increasing. In a raid some days ago, based on information from such a tip, Iraqi and US forces killed about 85 insurgents. I accompanied a reconnaissance yesterday looking for more insurgents, and the US captain leading the patrol told me that one of the suspects on the television show had come from a village we were in. The captain said that the suspect had admitted to beheading 23 captives.

Many Iraqis apparently have felt that insurgents were attacking the government based on religious duties. The "invisible" insurgents can seem omniscient and increasingly omnipotent. When the people see that many insurgents are merely killers for hire—street thugs who talk with street dialects—the citizens call authorities. Psyop, or just smart, the program is working.

The peace can be won here, but the steep road ahead is only for the strong.

http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/03/talk-of-iraq.html


 

Woodrow

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26402-2005Apr4.html

Actors in the Insurgency Are Reluctant TV Stars
Terror Suspects Grilled, Mocked on Hit Iraqi Show

BAGHDAD -- Iraq's hottest new television program is a reality show. But the players are not there by choice. And they don't win big bucks, a new spouse or a dream job.

Instead, all the characters on "Terrorism in the Hands of Justice" are captured suspected insurgents. And for more than a month, they have been riveting viewers with tales of how they killed, kidnapped, raped or beheaded other Iraqis, usually for a few hundred dollars per victim.
 
Seated before an Iraqi flag, the dejected and cowed prisoners answer questions from an off-camera inquisitor who mocks their behavior. Some sport bruised faces and black eyes. Far from appearing to be confident heroes battling U.S. occupation, they come across as gangsters.

"I watch the show every night, and I wait for it patiently, because it is very revealing," said Abdul Kareem Abdulla, 42, a Baghdad shop owner. "For the first time, we saw those who claim to be jihadists as simple $50 murderers who would do everything in the name of Islam. Our religion is too lofty, noble and humane to have such thugs and killers. I wish they would hang them now, and in the same place where they did their crimes. They should never be given any mercy."

Broadcast on al-Iraqiya, the state-run network set up by the U.S. occupation authority in 2003, "Terrorism in the Hands of Justice" has become one of most effective arrows in the government's counterinsurgency propaganda quiver.

"It has shown the Iraqi people the reality of those insurgents, [that] they are criminals, killers, murderers, thieves," Interior Minister Falah Naqib said last week.

Sabah Kadhim, an Interior Ministry spokesman, added, "The last few weeks have been incredible in terms of tips coming in from the public."

Officials launched the program, Kadhim said, after realizing that Iraqis did not believe that insurgents were being arrested. "Talking to people in the street, they say, 'Is it really true? . . . Why don't you show it?' " he recalled. "The demand for this came from the people."

The bruised faces and the death of at least one prisoner after his appearance on the show have raised questions about the men's treatment in custody. Kadhim denied the prisoners were being abused. "There is absolutely no motive for us to torture them," he said.

In recent reports, the State Department and Human Rights Watch have criticized the use of torture by Iraqi police.

"In light of our recent findings about the prevalence of torture in Iraqi prisons," said Joe Stork, a Washington-based spokesman for Human Rights Watch, "we have serious concerns that these confessions were not also coerced and that the Iraqi authorities failed to provide essential due process protections."

"Televised confessions are almost always suspect," Stork added. "Recent examples in Iran and Saudi Arabia clearly involved a high level of coercion and degrading treatment."

Such concerns have not dimmed the program's popularity.

"We had not planned for the tapes, but suddenly we had what you might call a scoop," said al-Iraqiya's Baghdad station director, Ahmed Yasseri. As a result, he said, "we have overtaken the other stations. These tapes have captured the attention of Iraqis."

The program usually opens with a graphic shot of a bloodied bombing victim lying in the street, followed by one of two smiling young boys holding a handwritten sign that reads, "No to Terrorism."

As each insurgent is questioned, others sit behind him, hands folded in laps, as if patiently waiting their turns in a barbershop. Sometimes, the head of a cougar or lion -- mascots of counterinsurgency police commandos -- are superimposed on the Iraqi flag in the background.

Many of the suspects are former policemen who claim they were coerced into joining the insurgency by threats against their families. Though many claim to have attacked U.S. forces, the interviews focus on their atrocities against Iraqis and payments they allegedly received from Syrian and Saudi paymasters.

In one recent episode, Ramzi Hashim Obeidi, a painter from Mosul who claimed to be a member of the Islamic radical group Ansar al-Islam, described his purported role in the 2003 car bomb assassination of a senior Shiite Muslim cleric, Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir Hakim, in Najaf.

Obeidi said he was part of a six-man team that was to "intercept U.S. forces if they came." Others drove the explosives-laden vehicle the approximately 90 miles from Baghdad to the site of the attack. "It was very easy," he said "It was an ambulance."

Among the conspirators who planned the operation, Obeidi said, was Iraq's most-wanted Islamic extremist, Abu Musab Zarqawi.

"You did not target just Hakim," the police interrogator shouted at Obeidi. "You killed 110 people, some of them women and children. . . . Do you call this jihad? What kind of jihad is this? To kill police, to behead police?"

Obeidi, who made no attempt to defend his actions, meekly replied, "Up to now, I don't know what jihad is."

On another segment, Qahtan Adnan Khalid, a prisoner who said he had been a policeman in the town of Samarra, had two black eyes and appeared to have difficulty breathing, occasionally wincing in pain.

Responding to each question with a deferential "Sir," Khalid recounted how he had shot two kidnapped policeman in the head and was paid $200 for each killing.

"I advise the young to stay away from these paths," he said at one point.

A few days after Khalid's appearance, his body was delivered to his father's home in Samarra, his family has said. Human Rights Minister Bakhtyar Amin said his office was investigating the death.

At times, the insurgents appear to be parroting packaged answers, and critics of the program say the prisoners' stories fit well with the government's portrait of the insurgency: that it is in large part a bunch of greedy criminals run amok, that foreigners play a big role and that funding is coming from neighboring Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Less emphasized on the program is that the predominantly Sunni Arab insurgency is also driven by fears of Shiite political domination and resentment of the U.S. occupation. As a result, "Terrorism in the Hands of Justice" provokes mixed feelings among some Sunni Arabs.

"My criticism of the program is that it is sometimes simplistic, repetitive and gives the impression that those [men] are being coached to say what they are saying, although I believe they have committed these crimes," said Abdul Kareem Janaby, 46, a Trade Ministry employee. "Those persons are nothing but dirty, lowly gangs who are being used to defame the true character of the Sunnis."

Kadhim said that the captured insurgents eventually would be brought to trial and that what they said on television would be ignored in court because the program was "not a court of law."

The prisoners can only hope they get a judge who shares the views of Fuad Awdeh, 27, a Shiite laborer in Baghdad who said he found the program "captivating."

"I feel sorry and pity for those guys," he said. "They may have done it for money . . . and probably, being unemployed, were easily drawn into this."

Still, Awdeh said, he finds the program credible "because in one episode someone spoke of committing a crime in the Wahda district, and it happens I knew the victim's family, and it was true."

 

King Tech Quadafi

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come now woodrow, surely these incidents dont speak for the entire insurgent population. u obviously know the insurgents are too diverse in cause and ideology to lump em together...?
"One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" was his response. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't matter."

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Jome

So much U.S. propaganda in one thread.  :D

Btw, you do know that close to none of the "insurgents" on that TV show get a fair trial right ?
It probably works great as entertainment and as a propaganda machine, but the accused on that show really have no option, guilty or not.
 

AndrE16686

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yeah if you consider making money legally so that you can live , feed your family and buy things..... to make progress past a war that has decimated your country and try to do something better for your community, working for america....i guess they deserve to die

 Exactly they are just trying to make the most of a bullshit situation! Bush is a fuckwit, but these 'insugents' will rot in hell alongside him. They target indiscriminately in the hope that the rising death toll will reflect badly on the US.GRRAH!
 

Thirteen

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yeah if you consider making money legally so that you can live , feed your family and buy things..... to make progress past a war that has decimated your country and try to do something better for your community, working for america....i guess they deserve to die

lol I wanna see that happen to America  ;D

it's not gonna happen in our lifetime... you might as well move to israel or something if you want to see crazy stuff happen
 

Thirteen

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yeah if you consider making money legally so that you can live , feed your family and buy things..... to make progress past a war that has decimated your country and try to do something better for your community, working for america....i guess they deserve to die

Did you forget the part about Iraqi police officers running up in people's cribs and blowing their heads off?  Or the part about Iraqi politicians always blaming "insurgents" for any problems the country is having, nevermind the fact that 140,000 foriegn troops have just came and murdered 100,000 Iraqi's in an effort to steal their natural resources and expand their global reach?  Did you forget that part of it?

it's great..

on one side you have people murdering, killing and maiming for money.

on the other you have people murdering, killing and maiming for allah.

am i supposed to see a difference between the two?

what ever happened to people that believed in a religion that stood as a beacon of light? your God is dying and it's your own people that are killing him. why should a muslim man in your religion try and live noble and humble when they can have a slave mentality...blame their short coming on the white western male and kill everyone in sight for gain? Maybe you should spend one hour less reading the Koran, and use that hour to read up on Friedrich Nietzsche.... get a little perspective in your shallow view

 

rafsta

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LMAO!!!!!!!!

Damn... You are so brainwashed man, you have totally lost your mind!!!!!!  You think they do it for money?!!!!!  HAHAHAA!!!!   Unbelievable!!   Yeah, the insurgents are really living it up hiding out in swamps, farms and deserts having bombs dropped on their heads...... they are on ballin status, making it big in the prisons of Abu Graib and Gauntanamo Bay!.... this is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said. 

Iraq has a smash-hit television show: "Terrorism in the Hands of Justice." The hour-long episodes without commercials are shown six nights per week on a government-owned, US-sponsored station.

I watched an episode with nine Iraqi translators working for the US Army. The translators say they "love the show," "watch it every night," and that Iraqis "downtown" chatter every morning about the latest episodes.

The format is simple: Captured insurgents start by admitting to crimes, such as killing Americans or Iraqi civilians. The insurgents also admit that they have not committed the attacks because of religion or national defense, but because their families are threatened, or that they are paid for the attacks, or both.

Some admit to taking the money from attacks, then to getting drunk or hiring prostitutes.   The suspects on the episode I watched had not yet been sentenced. This situation can vault the mind's eye to disturbing vistas about the state of "civil rights" here. Yet Iraq is at war with itself, and justice in this area of the world is as far behind, by comparison, as are their non-existent space programs. For any country not at war, the idea of forcing suspects onto television—before being sentenced—is far beyond the boundary of mere "wrong." But I walked among the smoking debris of yet another car bomb a couple days ago. Civil rights require that most people respect the civilization enough to stop those who do not. Some folks in Europe and America are saying that the show is a travesty of civil rights. They are right. Better ideas are welcome.

If the television program is a Psyop ploy, it seems to be working. The episodes have so angered many Iraqis that tips to authorities are radically increasing. In a raid some days ago, based on information from such a tip, Iraqi and US forces killed about 85 insurgents. I accompanied a reconnaissance yesterday looking for more insurgents, and the US captain leading the patrol told me that one of the suspects on the television show had come from a village we were in. The captain said that the suspect had admitted to beheading 23 captives.

Many Iraqis apparently have felt that insurgents were attacking the government based on religious duties. The "invisible" insurgents can seem omniscient and increasingly omnipotent. When the people see that many insurgents are merely killers for hire—street thugs who talk with street dialects—the citizens call authorities. Psyop, or just smart, the program is working.

The peace can be won here, but the steep road ahead is only for the strong.

http://michaelyon.blogspot.com/2005/03/talk-of-iraq.html




i'm not denying that quote in any way, but you have to remember the U.S is trying to win this war mentally as much as physically, they can easily create these episodes etc. as they could fake almost anything... all i'm saying is thats not such a reliable source. i find it hard to believe that these insurgents are willing to die in battle, then they just snitch.
 

rafsta

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"For the first time, we saw those who claim to be jihadists as simple $50 murderers who would do everything in the name of Islam.  Our religion is too lofty,noble and humane to have such thugs and killers . I wish they would hang them now, and in the same place where they did their crimes.  They should never be given any mercy ."

Our religion is too lofty,noble and humane to have such thugs and killers . They should never be given any mercy

« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 01:32:05 PM by Captain »
 

Woodrow

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Hey douche bag (infinite)

Big suprise: You look like a moron.

LMAO!!!!!!!!

Damn... You are so brainwashed man, you have totally lost your mind!!!!!!  You think they do it for money?!!!!!  HAHAHAA!!!!   Unbelievable!!   Yeah, the insurgents are really living it up hiding out in swamps, farms and deserts having bombs dropped on their heads...... they are on ballin status, making it big in the prisons of Abu Graib and Gauntanamo Bay!.... this is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said. 

I'm quoting what you said because you have a history of deleting stupid shit you say and I want the record to show what a fucking moron you are.
 

Infinite Trapped in 1996

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I'm quoting what you said because you have a history of deleting

I didn't delete that post, but I did edit out the laughing and the sarcasm.
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