Author Topic: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?  (Read 480 times)

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2005, 04:00:11 PM »
These claims were reported by the New Statesman and BBC News in the UK and around the world - yet they were inaccurate. As spiked revealed, the story about Habib being bled on by a naked prostitute did not come from Habib himself but from Jamal al-Harith, one of the freed Brits. We also reported that when Habib was released at the end of January, his version of the story was dramatically different: he said it wasn't a prostitute who taunted him, but an interrogator; she wasn't naked, she was wearing a skirt and top; and she didn't bleed on to him while he was manacled to the floor - she allegedly touched him with something that she said was blood, which is now widely believed to have been red ink from a magic marker
 

Real American

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2005, 05:31:43 PM »
Amnesty International recently compared the U.S. Guantanamo prison to the Soviet Gulags under Stalin. Here are the facts that they used to draw their conclusion:

Individuals Detained:
Gulag -- 20 million.
Guantanamo -- 750 total.

Number of Camps:
Gulag -- 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps.
Guantanamo -- five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.

Reasons for Imprisonment:
Gulag -- hiding grain; owning too many cows; need for slave labor; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.
Guantanamo -- fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

Red Cross Visits:
Gulag -- none on record.
Guantanamo -- regular visits since January 2002.

Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:
Gulag -- multiple millions.
Guantanamo -- no reports of prisoner deaths.

Daily Diet:
Gulag -- meager portions of swill.
Guantanamo -- two hot religiously correct meals per day with constant supply of snacks.

Work Requirements:
Gulag -- forced labor.
Guantanamo -- none.

Medical Treatment:
Gulag -- none.
Guantanamo -- better than the 20 million report "uninsured" American citizens.

Torture Methods:
Gulag -- starvation, beatings, exposure to elements, slave labor.
Guantanamo -- humiliation, standing on the koran

That post pretty much ends the debate.

Seriously, how can you take people seriously when they make these kind of comparisons? It is just nonsense, so why waste your time with idiots?
 

Ant

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2005, 06:34:07 PM »
and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)

to

science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions

once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison

Comparing US detainment camps to boot camp is every bit as ridiculous as comparing U.S. troops to Nazis.  There aren't homicides at bootcamp.  People aren't chained in stress positions for days on end at Bootcamp.  People aren't left chained to the floor lying in their own shit and piss in bootcamp.  And no one goes home from bootcamp with pictures looking anything like the one's that leaked from Abu Graib. 



ok how about SEAL boot camp, where there have been casualties, where they have been beaten to death back in the day...problem solved, want to nitpick some more?

Nitpick?  Please post some evidence (not bullshit, talkin out ur ass, opinions) that a NAVY Seal Bootcamp is anything like what goes on in US detainment camps.  If ever there was a NAVY Seal who was beaten to death during training you would condone that?  Anyone in their right mind realizes that NAVY Seals are not beaten regularly, held in stress positions, and chained to the floor covered in their own shit and piss.

You already read the article but maybe I should repost it. 

http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=79558.0

We actually beat a US soldier during a training drill to the point where he suffered permanent brain damage, and that was a training drill.  Feel free to criticize people who compare the US to Nazis, but don't start talking bullshit like being detaineed Guantanmo is the same as a NAVY Seal Bootcamp.  Firstly you've never been to NAVY Seal Bootcamp and secondly, your speaking out your ass w/o even referencing anything (I can garantee, and you will know its the truth when you read this, that you made a bullshit claim with no supporting evidence). Your bullshit claim doesn't even vidicate your original ridiculous statement. There are no regular homicides during NAVY Seal Bootcamp.  Are you so dumb as to argue despite the existence of photographs and FBI correspondence showing what happens in US Detainment camps that what goes on there is the equivalent of Bootcamp?  Then there is the Bybee Gonzales Memo which you probably know nothing of, but you shouldnt even have to know about it.  Only a bigot would continue suggest so arrogantly what you just said.  Congratulations you rank right next to Bill O'Reilly who went one step further and told us this sorta stuff is equivalent to Fraternity hazing.   

 

Ant

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2005, 06:36:04 PM »
Amnesty International recently compared the U.S. Guantanamo prison to the Soviet Gulags under Stalin. Here are the facts that they used to draw their conclusion:

Individuals Detained:
Gulag -- 20 million.
Guantanamo -- 750 total.

Number of Camps:
Gulag -- 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps.
Guantanamo -- five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.

Reasons for Imprisonment:
Gulag -- hiding grain; owning too many cows; need for slave labor; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.
Guantanamo -- fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

Red Cross Visits:
Gulag -- none on record.
Guantanamo -- regular visits since January 2002.

Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:
Gulag -- multiple millions.
Guantanamo -- no reports of prisoner deaths.

Daily Diet:
Gulag -- meager portions of swill.
Guantanamo -- two hot religiously correct meals per day with constant supply of snacks.

Work Requirements:
Gulag -- forced labor.
Guantanamo -- none.

Medical Treatment:
Gulag -- none.
Guantanamo -- better than the 20 million report "uninsured" American citizens.

Torture Methods:
Gulag -- starvation, beatings, exposure to elements, slave labor.
Guantanamo -- humiliation, standing on the koran

That post pretty much ends the debate.

Seriously, how can you take people seriously when they make these kind of comparisons? It is just nonsense, so why waste your time with idiots?

You are one of the stupidest people on this forum.  Never with real facts, only bullshit rhetoric.  Regardless of the stupidity of comparing the US to Nazis, you just plain and simple shouldn't ever open your mouth. Mommy and Daddy obviously brainwashed you at an early age.  You are the epitomy of a bigot and far surpass anything Woodrow is capable of. 
 

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2005, 07:08:35 PM »
lol the only beating that has been confirmed is of a US serviceman so yes i can compare this to navy Seal training, i can even compare it to regular bootcamp

we have done stress positions in bootcamp, there are stress positions in seal training

there have been deaths in both bootcamp and seal training...that right there are more than the deaths at guantanimo

i've seen suicide attempts and people needed pshych evals from stress and abuse during boot camp

i've seen people piss on themselves in boot camp

if you want me to find stories about death and exhaustion in boot camp to shut your dumb ass up....say so...but i know you won't find anything about deaths in gitmo

even most of the stories of torture are made up there without any hard physical proof

« Last Edit: June 24, 2005, 07:19:44 PM by What's Going On? »
 

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2005, 07:18:24 PM »
oh look at that, abuse and a death... well that's one thing bootcamp has over guantanimo... looks like my comparison wasn't bad after all



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Recruit’s death highlights brutality of Marine training
By Clare Hurley
25 February 2005
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

On February 8, US Marine recruit Jason Tharp, 19, from Sutton, West Virginia, died during a training exercise at the Parris Island, South Carolina, Marine base. Under normal circumstances, the tragic drowning of the teenager during the Combat Water Survival Training phase of boot camp might have remained a family tragedy recorded only in military statistics. However, video footage taken February 7 by a local television station turned up documenting physical abuse of the young recruit by his drill instructor. Picked up from local NBC affiliate WIS-TV in South Carolina, the clip aired on the “Today” show on February 18, provoking an outcry and demands for an investigation by his family.
 

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2005, 10:06:18 PM »
where's the apology Ant...surely a humble, scholoar of a democrat such as yourself could see that you've been mistaken and proven wrong
 

Real American

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2005, 09:16:06 AM »
Ant lost.
 

Ant

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2005, 10:24:05 AM »
You guys obviously have issues.  You're asking me to apologize for what reason? First, you might actually wanna give me a chance to respond before you get all giddy that just cuz I didnt type a reply 10 min. after your post I'm admitting error.  You're argument is stupid, but it doesnt even need addressing.  See below:

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo and Iraq, Afghanistan: UN source

Fri Jun 24, 9:23 AM ET


Washington has for the first time acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.

"They are no longer trying to duck this, and have respected their obligation to inform the UN," the Committee member told AFP.

"They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark."

UN sources said it was the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.

The Committee, which monitors respect for the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, is gathering information from the US ahead of hearings in May 2006.

Signatories of the convention are expected to submit to scrutiny of their implementation of the 1984 convention and to provide information to the Committee.

The document from Washington will not be formally made public until the hearings.

"They haven't avoided anything in their answers, whether concerning prisoners in Iraq, in Afghanistan or Guantanamo, and other accusations of mistreatment and of torture," the Committee member said.

"They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished."

The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added.

The US has faced criticism from UN human rights experts and international groups for mistreatment of detainees -- some of whom died in custody -- in Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly during last year's prisoner abuse scandal surrounding the Abu Ghraib facility there.

Scores of US military personnel have been investigated, and several tried and convicted, for abuse of people detained during the US-led campaign against Islamic terrorist groups.

At the Guantanamo Bay naval base, a US toehold in Cuba where around 520 suspects of some 40 nationalities are held, allegations of torture have combined with other claims of human rights breaches.

The US has faced widespread criticism for keeping the Guantanamo detainees in a "legal black hole," notably for its refusal to grant them prisoner of war status and allegedly sluggish moves to charge or try them.

Washington's report to the Committee reaffirms the US position that the Guantanamo detainees are classed as "enemy combatants," and therefore do not benefit from the POW status set out in the Geneva Conventions, the Committee member said.

Four UN human rights experts on Thursday slammed the United States for stalling on a request to allow visits to terrorism suspects held at the Guantanamo Bay naval base, and said they planned to carry out an indirect probe of conditions there.
 

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2005, 08:45:54 PM »
good job ant..... way to duck the topic.... we're talking about comparisons and you post up an article about torture...

so the questions are...

Can gitmo be compared to nazi's

NO

is my comparison of Gitmo to boot camp totally outrageous like you said?

NO

i win
 

Ant

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2005, 10:45:57 AM »
You really struggle with logic.  I didn't think it was necessary to give an indepth explanation about why your wrong.  I figured the facts would speak for themselves.  Instead you got confused, or just want to pretend I ducked the argument.  So let me explain in simple bullet points.

1.  I said it was ridiculous to compare gitmo to Nazi concentration camps from the start, so you don't score any points against me by pointing that out as if I was on the opposite side of the argument.

2.  The existence of similiarities doesn't make two things equal.  There are similiarities between Gitmo, Abu Graib, and Concentration Camps.  There are even similiarities between concentration camps and U.S. prisons.  It doesn't mean any of these things are equal.  Your argument is essentially, because similiarties exist between bootcamp and Gitmo the experiences of Gitmo detainees are the same as NAVY Seals in bootcamps.  That argument proves nothing.  You don't win by pointing out the existence of similiarties between bootcamp and gitmo, any more than someone on the opposite sides wins by pointing out the existence of similiarities between Gitmo and Nazi Concentration camps.

3.  I didn't need to offer a lengthy counter argument, because the story I posted refuted your nonsense.  I figured you could put 2 + 2 together and realize that if the U.S. govt. admits to the existence of torture at gitmo then the experience of Gitmo detainees is not "pretty much the same as" the experience of NAVY Seals in bootcamp.  It may be similiar in some regards, but it is also similiar in some regards to the experience of individuals in concentration camps.

4.  Really you're arguing a matter of opinion based on imperfect information.  You don't know what goes on in Gitmo, you don't know what goes on in NAVY Seal Bootcamp, yet based on the existence of similiarities between the two you seem to think the experiences of people in each closely appoximate each other.  Torture and training are not similiar experiences. 
 

Thirteen

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Re: What made Dick Durbin apoligise?
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2005, 10:57:43 AM »
well accordingto the bybee memo, torture can consist of mental anguish.... and seeing as how i've been through boot camp, and just in my unti 3 people tried to commit suicide.... 1 by hanging and two by razors that is consistant with mental torture, and the fact that that marine died from abuse...which gitmo doesn't have any deaths... makes it easy for my comparison

i have first hand experience of one case (boot camp), and the same information about the other case that you have (gitmo)

so i'm one step ahead of you in talking about this subject....have a nice day