Author Topic: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?  (Read 791 times)

J @ M @ L

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2005, 02:28:44 PM »
To be loved by most of the rap fans there is a "2 do list"
- Being from the ghetto
- Don't play another kind of music then rap
- Using the word bithes instead of woman or just girl
- Don't ever put a featuring unless it's another rapper
- Be Crunk (lmao)
- Being from the USA (international rapper don't get regocgnition at all), and i'm not talking about the racial issue
- Wearing XXXXXXXXXXXXXL shirts and pants
- Having 35000000000 pairs of air force 1
- etc...

Not true... maybe it's because you people live in Canada or Europe so you have this perception... I dunno I'm in L.A. and your list sounds like bullshit coming from some suburban white square who goes by what he sees on t.v.
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Shallow

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2005, 03:12:10 PM »
In short rappers are stupid and so are most of their fans.

If anything is stupid, it's that comment of yours.



So then please give me examples of open mindedness in rap, as a whole. It';s real easy to call something stupid and give no other info. (for the record, I meant mainstream rappers. If you have a friend around the corner he doesn't count).

So far in rap, I hear about thugging, misogyny, sexism, drugs, rap skill, and whitey must die, and not much else. Give me examples that rap strays from these topics on a large scale. Show me how rap and the hip hop culture accepts the world outside their own, (and not connected to them).


1. Your original post stated "rappers are...", and you didn't specify mainstream until now. I agree with the list of concepts heard in rap music, but you can't relate that to stupidity.

2. The main reason why I stated that your comment was stupid is because of the second part of the comment where you stated that most rap fans are stupid. Just because a certain type of music appeals to you, doesn't make you stupid. But then again... you're a rap fan, and rap fans aren't open-minded, so you wouldn't be able to see that, now would you?  :)

1. What do you meanby "you can't relate that to stupidity."? I'm not sure what that means.

2. I clearly made a point to say "(I'm not talking about the posters in this board, but more the fake and real thugs on the street that pretend they know music)" in my fist post. I guessed you missed it. The "hardcore" fan of today is not as prominant as it once was. In the early 70s a band like Pink Floyd could make Dark Side of The Moon and a large number of music fans would get into it and enjoy it. If that album was released today it would get no video or radio play and be rejected by the masses. The mainstream fan of today has been too conditioned, in my opinion. Not just in rap, but rap is the music of choice at the moment and the rap scene asa whole has suffered. I don't mean every single rapper or every single fan, but the majority of both to the point where the minority is way too small to make a dent. Did I oversimplify in my first post? I don't don't think I did. I felt I explained who I was talking about and who I wasn't talking about. Obviously people like Common or Mos Def don't fit the mold I was criticzing, but a few rappers breaking out and doing something different on a small scale does nothing for the scene.

1. What I mean is that those things don't have a correlation to stupidity.

2. Ok, I guess your original post was just a little ambiguous, but this clarifies it.. at first you just said "rappers and most rap fans"...


So according to you rapping about; how much of a violent gangster you are, how much inferior women are, dealing drugs, how great you are as a rapper, and racism, has nothing to do with stupidity? I wonder what does correlate with stupid to you.

Yeah I'm from Toronto, and we actually had hip hop going strong in Canada before you got it in LA, because of how close we are with New York. I've been and go to New York often and the only real difference is the size of the city. The rap fans aren't much different as a whole. You make it sound like I'm from some small town. You're the one from the place that the home of hip hop has criticized as second rate hip hop from day one.

 

Kill

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2005, 03:19:31 PM »
^^ "I´m so violent, I´m one hell of a gangsta, bitches ain´t shit but hoes and tricks, I sell crack to infants....", that does have to do with inferiority, ok. But rapping about the circumstances under which a lot of people turn that way and describing such an environment does not, and that´s what a lot of rappers do..."Illmatic" is so great because it vividly and at times poetically portrays the projects and a young man living there, while still revolving around exactly those subjects
 

J @ M @ L

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2005, 03:27:43 PM »
In short rappers are stupid and so are most of their fans.

If anything is stupid, it's that comment of yours.



So then please give me examples of open mindedness in rap, as a whole. It';s real easy to call something stupid and give no other info. (for the record, I meant mainstream rappers. If you have a friend around the corner he doesn't count).

So far in rap, I hear about thugging, misogyny, sexism, drugs, rap skill, and whitey must die, and not much else. Give me examples that rap strays from these topics on a large scale. Show me how rap and the hip hop culture accepts the world outside their own, (and not connected to them).


1. Your original post stated "rappers are...", and you didn't specify mainstream until now. I agree with the list of concepts heard in rap music, but you can't relate that to stupidity.

2. The main reason why I stated that your comment was stupid is because of the second part of the comment where you stated that most rap fans are stupid. Just because a certain type of music appeals to you, doesn't make you stupid. But then again... you're a rap fan, and rap fans aren't open-minded, so you wouldn't be able to see that, now would you?  :)

1. What do you meanby "you can't relate that to stupidity."? I'm not sure what that means.

2. I clearly made a point to say "(I'm not talking about the posters in this board, but more the fake and real thugs on the street that pretend they know music)" in my fist post. I guessed you missed it. The "hardcore" fan of today is not as prominant as it once was. In the early 70s a band like Pink Floyd could make Dark Side of The Moon and a large number of music fans would get into it and enjoy it. If that album was released today it would get no video or radio play and be rejected by the masses. The mainstream fan of today has been too conditioned, in my opinion. Not just in rap, but rap is the music of choice at the moment and the rap scene asa whole has suffered. I don't mean every single rapper or every single fan, but the majority of both to the point where the minority is way too small to make a dent. Did I oversimplify in my first post? I don't don't think I did. I felt I explained who I was talking about and who I wasn't talking about. Obviously people like Common or Mos Def don't fit the mold I was criticzing, but a few rappers breaking out and doing something different on a small scale does nothing for the scene.

1. What I mean is that those things don't have a correlation to stupidity.

2. Ok, I guess your original post was just a little ambiguous, but this clarifies it.. at first you just said "rappers and most rap fans"...


So according to you rapping about; how much of a violent gangster you are, how much inferior women are, dealing drugs, how great you are as a rapper, and racism, has nothing to do with stupidity? I wonder what does correlate with stupid to you.

Yeah I'm from Toronto, and we actually had hip hop going strong in Canada before you got it in LA, because of how close we are with New York. I've been and go to New York often and the only real difference is the size of the city. The rap fans aren't much different as a whole. You make it sound like I'm from some small town. You're the one from the place that the home of hip hop has criticized as second rate hip hop from day one.

1. Knowing what makes money and selling out doesn't show a correlation to stupidity. For example, Chino XL is in MENSA, and if you believe he's stupid... then the only stupid one is you.

2. Yes, and since you're referring to mainstream hiphop in your post, we all know that all the mainstream stuff comes out of L.A., and none of it out of N.Y... fucking retard.. the fact that I live in L.A. doesn't have anything to do with L.A. rappers... unless now we get another thing coming out of your narrow mind which would imply that fans only listen to the rap music that originates in their city.
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Juronimo

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2005, 05:32:11 PM »
Ok now let's be real here.

We all love hip hop but there has always been sort of a closed minded attitude and it's nothing new, it's been around since the 80's.

In the hiphop community, there has always been this mindstate about bein "real" and the whole "real hip hop" and such and such is not "real hip hop" and things of that nature.

How often have artists over the last 20 years gone against the grain only to have criticism heaped on them by the so-called "real hip hop heads"? If you have an r&b singer on a song, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over a band, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over funk instead of boom bap, you're not real hip hop, etc. That kind of mentality kills innovation.

I think now with money being a bigger factor than ever, I mean it was a factor before but now it's overwhelming, this meantality has taken another twist. Now you have to come up with a forumal that sounds like everything else or the record label won't promote your record, unless you're an established artist with a track record of sales (Nas, Common, Outkast, etc). Also Shallow is right in the sense that many of the commercial rappers out now aren't really artists and lack the ability to branch out and do different shit. Also, many fans are scared to listen to different shit or they won't support a record that doesn't have videos all over BET or isn't on rotation on Power 106 or 100.3 the beat.

Now to answer the original question, the reason why artists limit themselves is
A) They don't have the talent ot expand
B) They don't want take a risk and lose sales
C) Their label won't allow them to take risks
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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2005, 05:36:37 PM »
Its not the artists... It's the fans. The Majority of rappers want to try something new. But, their core fans refuse to listen to it. Bubba Sparxxx made an amazing album, IMO, with Deliverance... Where is he now? Snoop branches out and works with new artists from other areas, what does he get? Hate. It's a lose/lose for artists nowadays. Fans dictate so much of Hip Hop, an artist can't truely be an artist. If FANS were more open-minded, Hip Hop would be too, as a whole.
 

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2005, 05:37:28 PM »
In the hiphop community, there has always been this mindstate about bein "real" and the whole "real hip hop" and such and such is not "real hip hop" and things of that nature.

How often have artists over the last 20 years gone against the grain only to have criticism heaped on them by the so-called "real hip hop heads"? If you have an r&b singer on a song, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over a band, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over funk instead of boom bap, you're not real hip hop, etc. That kind of mentality kills innovation.


I totally agree with that... but the thing is who are these "real hip hop heads"? Seriously, I know a lot of people who listen to hiphop and none of them fit the characteristics you guys ascribed to them.... the only time I really see people saying shit like that is online and most of the time it's squares from Norway trying to come off as gully hiphop heads.

The people I know... we listen to whatever... I'll listen to artists like 50 Cent at parties or whatever, or when you just wanna bump something in the car.... but then I'll also listen to shit like Immortal Technique, Ras Kass, Canibus, Pharoahe Monch, Chino XL, whatever... but you fruitcakes try to come with some bullshit like "rap fans don't like rappers unless they wear XXXXXXL shirts"... I mean what kinda retarded bullshit is that coming from some European or Canadian fucks
« Last Edit: September 15, 2005, 05:43:06 PM by JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel »
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Juronimo

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2005, 05:54:03 PM »
In the hiphop community, there has always been this mindstate about bein "real" and the whole "real hip hop" and such and such is not "real hip hop" and things of that nature.

How often have artists over the last 20 years gone against the grain only to have criticism heaped on them by the so-called "real hip hop heads"? If you have an r&b singer on a song, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over a band, you're not real hip hop, if you rap over funk instead of boom bap, you're not real hip hop, etc. That kind of mentality kills innovation.


I totally agree with that... but the thing is who are these "real hip hop heads"? Seriously, I know a lot of people who listen to hiphop and none of them fit the characteristics you guys ascribed to them.... the only time I really see people saying shit like that is online and most of the time it's squares from Norway trying to come off as gully hiphop heads.

The people I know... we listen to whatever... I'll listen to artists like 50 Cent at parties or whatever, or when you just wanna bump something in the car.... but then I'll also listen to shit like Immortal Technique, Ras Kass, Canibus, Pharoahe Monch, Chino XL, whatever... but you fruitcakes try to come with some bullshit like "rap fans don't like rappers unless they wear XXXXXXL shirts"... I mean what kinda retarded bullshit is that coming from some European or Canadian fucks

Rodney O and Joe Cooley dissed r&b/rap collabos on "You Don't Hear Me Though" which came out in '93. Joint knocks hard tho.

Common complained about rappers rapping over funk and telling sad stories on "I Used to Love H.E.R."

I remember Buckshot dissing the Roots or rappers rapping over a band in one of his songs, sometime in the late '90s.

J-Live dissed Dr. Dre for rapping about 64 Impalas and saying that's not "real" on DJ Jazzy Jeff's album.

Tim Dog dissed all Compton rappers for no reason.

RZA called R&B rap and bullshit on Wu-Tang Forever.

This is along the lines of what I was talking about in my post.

I remember in the early 90's, I was always around the underground scene in the area due to one of my boys wanting to get on and some of those people were the most closeminded heads I've ever encountered. They were on that "real hip hop" type vibe I was talking about. If a rapper didn't fit that super-narrow definition of what real hip hop, they got hated on.

On the other hand, most of the peeps I hung out with back then would pretty much listen to anything, as long as it was good. It was a small group that was all on that "real" shit, but they were a vocal group. I think that kind of attitude has died down quite a bit but a new attitude has taken hold.

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2005, 08:46:19 PM »
They're money hungry and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's why half of them fall off.
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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2005, 08:54:06 PM »
Kanye has a tendency to try new stuff cause his not afraid but he gets a lot of hate on this board fom the same people who r trying to get rappers to try new stuff
 

Shallow

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2005, 10:20:28 AM »
^^ "I´m so violent, I´m one hell of a gangsta, bitches ain´t shit but hoes and tricks, I sell crack to infants....", that does have to do with inferiority, ok. But rapping about the circumstances under which a lot of people turn that way and describing such an environment does not, and that´s what a lot of rappers do..."Illmatic" is so great because it vividly and at times poetically portrays the projects and a young man living there, while still revolving around exactly those subjects


You make it seem like I am saying it about every single artist and every single album. Obviously there are ways to approach those issues creatively, but the bulk of the hip hop scene, particularly today, does not do so. The bulk of the scene consists of rappers that glorify those issues, and most of the rest of the scene consists of rappers that complain about rappers that glorify it. That leaves very little room for artistic growth.

You mention Nas with Illmatic, and that album was very good, but the next few albums weren't too different. He went on a slight "intellectual" tip for a while with his rhymes about world politics and such but the fact that he was often factually wrong and usually just saying shit to sound smart hurt his stance.

Where was Nas's artistic growth, or at least artistic shift? He had a tune here and there that was nice and pushed his talents but for the most part it's just the same shit. His flow didn't change much, his lyrics kept the same topics going; musically he had very little talent to begin with.

I get it when rappers have their debut ands they rap about where they're from and what they've seen, but after they "make it" they don't see or live what they rap about, and that's fine if they're trying new things with those same topics but when they aren't it's just boring and stagnant. There is more to their lives than what goes on in the streets but they ignore that when raping, for the most part, because the street doesn't accept that. The street doesn't want real artists they want gangsters and the ones that are considered artists are gang related rappers that slightly break the mold but never fully. If you talk to any gangster one on one you'll see a huge difference in who they are privately and who they are publicly. This is where a lot of rappers come from. It's not accepted to stray too far away from popular opinion.

Guys like Nas, Biggie, Jay Z, DMX, Snoop, never really artistically grew or changed all that much. Rap is based on lyrics more than anything and there lyrics from their first albums aren't much different from the rest of their albums, and in many cases worse as that go forward. I'm not talking about a song here and there but a whole album.

Let's take Springsteen for example. His first couple albums were just his take on a lot of things he saw growing up in Jersey and visiting New York. Anything from War vets returning home, to girl trouble, to adolescence, to the hardships of living righteous in the city, to getting lost in the pressures of street life. Then he made a trilogy of albums starting with trying to escape the confines of society, to breaking to lose, to getting trapped all over again and facing the aftermath. These albums included songs about making illegal deals, gang warfare, drag racing, rebelling against your father, running out on your family, teenage pregnancy, stealing cars, living in ghettos, and losing love. From there Springsteen made Nebraska and focused on the hardships of middle America and how the economy affects them. He had traveled the country by then and he had seen a lot more than what he had seen in just Jersey. He sang about murderers on trial, organized crime, and faith to keep going. That moved in to Born In The USA which took a lot of what Nebraska did and added a more universal aspect. Taking the hardships of poor middle America to the everyday problems of the rest of America. Tunnel of Love was about the dark side of married life, filled with jealousy, abandonment, and fighting your inner demons. He tried going a bit happier on his next two albums but that didn't work so well so he went back to the darkness of the poor with Ghost of Tom Joad, inspired by the Grapes of Wrath and every day Americans and American immigrants that come across the border, get out jail with out the tools need to make it in society, and living homeless. He then wrote about loss, inspired by 9/11 on the Rising album and most recently he made an album about compromise and consequences with songs about soldiers, the lack of identity in black youth and the troubles they go through, looking back on past sins and hoping you past won't affect your child’s future. That is what I call being artistic from a lyrical side.

A lot of musicians don't even focus on the lyrical because they try and change the artistic side of themselves musically. David Bowie is a great example, and so are the Beatles. In rap the focus is and always should be on lyrics, unless they start composing music on a grand scale.


1. Knowing what makes money and selling out doesn't show a correlation to stupidity. For example, Chino XL is in MENSA, and if you believe he's stupid... then the only stupid one is you.



You bring up making songs for the sake of making money, (which isn't artistic at all), because it's "smart", then you bring up a rapper who doesn't sell any records as your example of smart rappers. You make no sense. I never meant every rapper is an intellectual moron. I meant artistically the majority aren't that good.



2. Yes, and since you're referring to mainstream hiphop in your post, we all know that all the mainstream stuff comes out of L.A., and none of it out of N.Y... fucking retard.. the fact that I live in L.A. doesn't have anything to do with L.A. rappers... unless now we get another thing coming out of your narrow mind which would imply that fans only listen to the rap music that originates in their city.



You brought up "place" not me. You implied because I was from Canada I couldn't comprehend what hip hop was or how hip hop fans are. There has always been as much hip hop here as in LA. It's just that not many Canadian artists have gotten a break in the US.

Of course fans don't only listen to what originates in their city; so why the fuck do you keep bringing up this Canadian thing?

And who currently in the mainstream is from LA? Certainly not the majority. And certainly not historically.


And I don't even know why you're in this argument. You disagree with me for blaimng the fans yet agree with SGV for saying the same thing. THen you agree and disagree with Juronimo over the same things. Youre crazy. Pick a side and stick to it.
 

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2005, 11:20:32 AM »
Its not the artists... It's the fans. The Majority of rappers want to try something new. But, their core fans refuse to listen to it. Bubba Sparxxx made an amazing album, IMO, with Deliverance... Where is he now? Snoop branches out and works with new artists from other areas, what does he get? Hate. It's a lose/lose for artists nowadays. Fans dictate so much of Hip Hop, an artist can't truely be an artist. If FANS were more open-minded, Hip Hop would be too, as a whole.

Snoop is a different issue, and in fact is more proof of hiphop artists limiting themselves than being an example of them not. Hes gone and worked with the Neptunes who are what is considered "hot" at the moment, its hardly a major artistic breakthrough. If Snoop did an album with ex-members of Parliament, Funkdelic, and some new funk guys playing new stuff live over it, and really funked out, that would show that he wasn't limiting himself artistically, and would almost be him going full circle back to the roots of his first album, without just revisiting it.

The major problem I see is that a lot of rappers don't wanna risk doing some "out there" stuff for fear of losing their reputation. Prince Paul has said it numerous times in interviews that there were times where he'd come up with the best concepts ever, but couldn't find any rappers who shared the vision to make an album based on them. Beneath the surface of "commercial" hiphop there are many talented and creative artists, but the hiphop mainstream is just driven by what teenagers are going to buy, and there are too many rappers willing to "sell out" in order to get a piece of that market.

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2005, 03:51:13 PM »
1. Knowing what makes money and selling out doesn't show a correlation to stupidity. For example, Chino XL is in MENSA, and if you believe he's stupid... then the only stupid one is you.



You bring up making songs for the sake of making money, (which isn't artistic at all), because it's "smart", then you bring up a rapper who doesn't sell any records as your example of smart rappers. You make no sense. I never meant every rapper is an intellectual moron. I meant artistically the majority aren't that good.

I never said it was smart, don't put words in my mouth. I said it has no correlation to stupidity. If you were to say that you're not stupid, would it automatically mean that you're smart? Is everything zero-sum with you?
Yeah I brought up a rapper who doesn't sell any records as an example of smart rappers, but not once did I say that selling records has a correlation to intelligence. You make no sense, and the only time you make yourself believe that you do, is when you misinterpret others' words.




2. Yes, and since you're referring to mainstream hiphop in your post, we all know that all the mainstream stuff comes out of L.A., and none of it out of N.Y... fucking retard.. the fact that I live in L.A. doesn't have anything to do with L.A. rappers... unless now we get another thing coming out of your narrow mind which would imply that fans only listen to the rap music that originates in their city.


And who currently in the mainstream is from LA? Certainly not the majority. And certainly not historically.
It was meant as sarcasm.. guess I overestimated your ability to sense it.

And I don't even know why you're in this argument. You disagree with me for blaimng the fans yet agree with SGV for saying the same thing. THen you agree and disagree with Juronimo over the same things. Youre crazy. Pick a side and stick to it.
I disagree with you stating that the fans are stupid. Where in SGV's posts do you see him stating that fans are stupid... maybe he believes it, but it's not in his post.... and later when you clarified yourself, I told you that I agreed with what you said because you didn't make it clear in your original post. You seem to be getting your panties wet over nothing these days... maybe we should hold the arguing for 4-7 days.
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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2005, 07:06:18 PM »
You said not stupid then you brought up examples of smart by stating Mensa. It was a more than clear implication. Much clearer than your sarcasm, which almost never translates well in writing.

I feel I made it very clear from the first post and you were the only one to confuse it. I feel it's stupid to not accept artistic growth from artists and I also feel it's stupid for artists to resist artistic growth. I do not mean this in an econimical way. I mean that rappers tend to think it has to be done a certain way and refuse to accept many things.
 

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Re: Why Do Hip-Hop Artists Like To Limit Themselves?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2005, 08:57:09 PM »
You said not stupid then you brought up examples of smart by stating Mensa. It was a more than clear implication. Much clearer than your sarcasm, which almost never translates well in writing.

I feel I made it very clear from the first post and you were the only one to confuse it. I feel it's stupid to not accept artistic growth from artists and I also feel it's stupid for artists to resist artistic growth. I do not mean this in an econimical way. I mean that rappers tend to think it has to be done a certain way and refuse to accept many things.

Yeah, I already stated earlier that your post was a bit ambiguous until you cleared it up... and that I understood what you meant after you clarified it. This is the third time I'm telling you this, but then again... you are the self-proclaimed "most stubborn" poster.  :)
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