EU slams Israel for its policies in East Jerusalem

[J @ M @ L]

you have every reason to feel bad now so go ahead.. feel free to

[I TO DA GEEZY]

LOL.. you fall into traps too easily...

do some research on Israel Zangwill.  
hint: google his name along with the phrase "land without people for a people without a land"

Double trap my friend
 ...

check this out:

While writing Judenstaat Herzel knew very little about the situation in Eretz Yisrael or the already active Zionist movement in Europe, it's a fact. A utopian novelist, a spokesman for Zionism, but he never had any practical impact on the Zionist activity in Eretz Yisrael.Herzel wasn't the founder of Zionism(talking about lies). On this note, the writer of this article could've talked about "Altneuland" an enlightened society Herzel envisioned in the future Jewish state where all religions lived side by side in harmony but that wouldn't have served the writer's needs as well .

and as for his followers:

"Land with no people"- Land that did not belong to a people
 not a land without people( as in Human Beings, persons) living on it.

You honestly think, that like you, I need google to debate? There are things I know, and you've just proven this is the first time you hear of Israel Zangwill.

[J @ M @ L]

1. I don't know if you're blind, or if you can't read... but I stated that Herzl was one of the forerunners in the mobilization and formal organization of the Zionist movement.

2. "Land with no people"- Land that did not belong to a people.
Is that your assumption? And even if it is, does that make it right in any way? All you're saying to me is, "it was injust in a different way". Injustice is injustice. People were living there... Zionist terrorism was one of the factors that drove them out... the people that left are NOT ALLOWED TO RETURN. Do Israelis know anything about International Law?

3. Did you overlook this?
Achad Ha-Am: "Abroad we are accustomed to believe that Israel is almost empty;
nothing is grown here and that whoever wishes to buy land could come here and
buy what his heart desires. In reality, the situation is not like this.
Throughout the country it is difficult to find cultivable land which is not
already cultivated." (1891)

4. You don't need google, you need to educate yourself and then stop lying to yourself.

5. How did I prove that I haven't heard of Israel Zangwill? LOL so you don't need google... you need assumptions?

you're right... double-trap.. you fell into 2 in a row.

[I TO DA GEEZY]

Israel Zangwill FYI:  Supported Herzl's Uganda plan and following its rejection, led the Territorialists out of the Zionist organization in 1905. He established the Jewish Territorialists Organization (ITO) whose object was to acquire a Jewish homeland where possible(Not necessarily in Eretz Yisrael\Palestine).



And as for his "Land without people..."(- the ambiguity of this statement reinforced a misconception, the existence of which, both Echad Haam and Herzel confirmed prior to it, something that proves some people believed, in fact, there weren't any people on this land-) it's a fact that there WERE people on this land, and that they weren't A PEOPLE untill the Zionist movement came.

[J @ M @ L]

Did you purposely omit:
"he called for the transfer of Arabs from Eretz­Israel to neighboring Arab states"


it's a fact that there WERE people on this land, and that they weren't A PEOPLE untill the Zionist movement came.

The first part is sufficient in explaining the injustice. Thank You for that.. I don't even need to say anything... I should just keep letting you do the talking and prove my point for me.

[I TO DA GEEZY]

Did you purposely omit:
"he called for the transfer of Arabs from Eretz­Israel to neighboring Arab states"

No, you're right he did due to the Balfour Declaration, but at that time he was no longer a part of the Zionist movement 

[I TO DA GEEZY]

Did you purposely omit:
"he called for the transfer of Arabs from Eretz­Israel to neighboring Arab states"


it's a fact that there WERE people on this land, and that they weren't A PEOPLE untill the Zionist movement came.

The first part is sufficient in explaining the injustice.

The second part is sufficient in explaining the ploy which you choose to ignore.

you haven't explained your position on this(I wonder why...lol):

If Palestinian Arabs were so much against colonialism why didn't they proclaim their nationalism throughout the mandates? Don't you find it wierd that some have decided to oppose Zionism
when they didn't mind powerfull empires oppressing them? Don't you realize that the only chance for Palestinian Arabs to achieve national goals was the Zionist movement (they didn't even see themselves as a nation prior to Zionism)?Familiar with the term "Political hitchhiking"-What pushed them from being passive beholders at the mandates to seeking self-determination(Due to which active force?)? Do you understand now the whole- Zionism as "a companion to the Arab nationalist movement"- thing? In other words, those who chose to oppose Zionism were the ones who first used the Zionist movement to proclaim their 'national goals' and the ones that wanted to get rid of it as soon as the Zionists could obstruct the annexation of the land to the rest of the Arab world.

[J @ M @ L]

Did you purposely omit:
"he called for the transfer of Arabs from Eretz­Israel to neighboring Arab states"


it's a fact that there WERE people on this land, and that they weren't A PEOPLE untill the Zionist movement came.

The first part is sufficient in explaining the injustice.

The second part is sufficient in explaining the ploy which you choose to ignore.

Actually, the second part is only what justifies an injustice in your eyes... not even the people who committed these injustices are in denial to the extent that you are. It's kinda sad how brainwashed or dumb you are.

you haven't explained your position on this(I wonder why...lol):

If Palestinian Arabs were so much against colonialism why didn't they proclaim their nationalism throughout the mandates? Don't you find it wierd that some have decided to oppose Zionism
when they didn't mind powerfull empires oppressing them? Don't you realize that the only chance for Palestinian Arabs to achieve national goals was the Zionist movement (they didn't even see themselves as a nation prior to Zionism)?Familiar with the term "Political hitchhiking"-What pushed them from being passive beholders at the mandates to seeking self-determination(Due to which active force?)? Do you understand now the whole- Zionism as "a companion to the Arab nationalist movement"- thing? In other words, those who chose to oppose Zionism were the ones who first used the Zionist movement to proclaim their 'national goals' and the ones that wanted to get rid of it as soon as the Zionists could obstruct the annexation of the land to the rest of the Arab world.

The indigenous habitants of Palestine (not your European ancestors) did resist Zionist settlement policies from the start, but the resistance was mainly defensive, and there were no political goals. You have to understand that there were no nations... there's nothing that made the inhabitants of Palestine different from the other Arabs... the British and French just drew lines on a map. Trans-Jordan was created because the British wanted to appease Amir Abdallah who was threatening to attack the French. Draw a fucking line.. and Palestine is divided into Palestine and Trans-Jordan. There was no Jordanian nationalism.
Anyways, Jewish immigration to Palestine began way before the Balfour Declaration... they were trying to install a settler-plantation colony in Palestine at first. The indigenous inhabitants of Palestine (aka not your European ancestors... the people who actually lived on the land before the Zionists' colonialism) did resist Zionist settlements from the start, and yes, they didn't have any political goals. The Palestinian community wasn't organized or unified... but there had been no need because they were citizens of the Ottoman Empire. The Zionists embraced the mandates system, the Arabs didn't... so they didn't organize themselves in a way to take advantage of the mandate. Now you have to understand this very important point... the emergence of identity and nationalism was different in Palestine than it was in the other mandates. Zionist settlement was different from the imperialism that the Syrians and Iraqis faced. The British and French ruled their mandates territories indirectly and didn't steal land. Yeah, Palestinian nationalism therefore developed later than Zionism, and was in response to Zionist immigration and colonization... but does that make Palestinian nationalism any less legitimate? Zionism arose in reaction to anti-Semitic and nationalist movements in Europe... just in the same way that Palestinian nationalism arose in reaction to Zionism... there's a difference though. There were expulsions and other Palestinians were deliberately frightened into leaving (Zionist terrorism... I know I'm using two synonyms in a row here..) example: Dayr Yassin. Zionist leaders have admitted that it was in their aim to remove the Palestinians, and take over. They have also admitted to force being vital. I won't even charge you for this lesson... I'm starting to look at youthe way a father would at his dumb son.
However you want to put it.. and look at it from a historic perspective... there's no way to defend denying the Palestinian people the right to return. And you honestly have to be retarded... I mean that literally... to actually believe that Zionism hasn't victimized Palestinians in any way. I'm not gonna respond anymore because you're no better than people who deny the Holocaust and I'll leave you with: You're a tool, and I pity you.

[I TO DA GEEZY]

In 1922 Britain allocated nearly 80% of Palestine to Transjordan. Thus, Jordan covers the majority of the land of Palestine under British Mandate. Jordan also includes the majority of the Arabs who lived there. In other words, Jordan is the Arab portion of Palestine.

The residents of Palestine are called "Palestinians". Since Palestine includes both modern day Israel and Jordan both Arab and Jewish residents of this area were referred to as "Palestinians".

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East.

 So you think Jews should've stayed in Europe I suppose? How many anti-semitic progroms could they have endured? how many holocausts?
 

[J @ M @ L]

In other words, Jordan is the Arab portion of Palestine.
LMFAO. Please tell me you're joking and really aren't this dumb. The majority of the people in Palestine were still non-Jewish Arabs. That's fact. I honestly can't tell anymore if you're brainwashed, dumb or just str8 up retarded.

The residents of Palestine are called "Palestinians". Since Palestine includes both modern day Israel and Jordan both Arab and Jewish residents of this area were referred to as "Palestinians".
Yes, there was a small population of indigenous Jewish people there. What does that have to do with Zionist colonialism?

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria
LOOOLLLLLLL... "re-inhabited"   "HISTORIC HOMELAND"... the fact that you even mention that in an argument is laughable... what claim do European Jews have to that land? Reinhabited? When did European Jews live there? God gave it to them thousands of years ago? Whose ancestors lived there and how long ago? Please keep the bullshit out.
,that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide.
Myth? So when the mandates were split up.. and one was called Trans-Jordan and the other Palestine... you have Jordanians and guess what... Palestinians.. referring to the indigenous population... not Europeans.
Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East.
Jews came from Judea? Yeah... and there were Jews among the indigenous population... again, what does this have to do with Europeans? No shit there hasn't been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians... there wasn't an Iraq, Syria, Jordan, or Lebanon either... Palestinians are just like all other Arabs... and they were living on that land... what's your point? That they should've left and given up the land to the Jewish colonizers?
 So you think Jews should've stayed in Europe I suppose? How many anti-semitic progroms could they have endured? how many holocausts?
What does my opinion have to do with it? I have nothing to do with this, and like I've said before... unlike you, I deal with facts... not bullshit opinions. For example... Palestinians have been victims of Zionism. If you believe otherwise, then prove to me that there wasn't a diaspora of the Palestinian population. Prove to me that no Zionist terrorists have burned down Palestinian villages. Because I can prove those things...Like your own leaders have said... yeah the holocaust happened, but what does that have to do with the Palestinians? All I'm pointing out is the injustice. I can't change what happened... nor do I have an opinion on what should've happened... all I'm saying is that what did happen was unjust... and the injustice continues today...

Anyways, I'm way above your level... and you really don't even deserve to be having a conversation with me. You're lacking knowledge.. and by knowledge I mean truthful knowledge. It's understandable though.. you live in Israel... the state founded on propaganda.
 

[J @ M @ L]

"The Holocaust never happened" = "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism" = "I Geezy knows what he's talking about"

All three of the statements above have something in common... all three are complete bullshit.

[I TO DA GEEZY]

"The Holocaust never happened" = "Palestinians have in no way been victims of Zionism" = "I Geezy knows what he's talking about"

All three of the statements above have something in common... all three are complete bullshit.

Palestinians=Byproducts of Zionism

Hadn't there been Zionism, there wouldn't be any Palestinians

Palestinian organizaed nationalism or not, doesn't change the fact that the Arab world(ruled by dictators) possesses 10s of times more land than Jews have been allocated with or possess.

Support of a Palestinian state=Support of yet another terrorist state in the middle east

Palestinians need Israel to justefy their existence as a people, No Israel=Arab Autocratic Unity=No Palestinians

Every war Israel had ever had, proves this^

20% of Israel's population is Palestinian with equal rights to those of the Jewish population.

Palestinian claim of the land=opposition to Zionism=Arab Unity as a goal=Victimizing the peacefull native population in on going battles under militant autocratic leadership.

The Arab/Israeli conflict was artificially created to shift focus from social and economic disasters inflicted by autocratic leaders on their subordinates out of greed and thirst for power.

The Palestinian Autonomy was founded on terrorism

Arab states' military frustration in eliminating Israel=creation of a political ploy to eliminate Israel=PLO=PHASED PLAN=Palestinian Self Determination

Israeli Arabs live 100s of times better than Arabs in the Palestinian Autonomy and many Arabs attempt to infiltrate Israel,in many ways, to achieve economic stability.(Running away from
those who made them victims to those who granted Arabs with a stable life)


Israeli Arabs
Arabs who are citizens of Israel, including Palestinian Arabs who chose to stay in their homes rather than flee in 1947-1949, and other Arabs who were allowed to become naturalized citizens. Approximately 20 percent of the Israeli population are Arabs. Israeli Arabs enjoy equal rights with Israeli Jews in Israel. The one exception is that Israeli Arabs are not required to serve in the military, though some, including all Druze, do choose to serve.


Jewish Refugees from Arab Lands
Prior to the establishment of Israel, more than 850,000 Jews lived in Arab countries. After Israel achieved independence, many of these Jews were persecuted by their governments and compelled to leave, despite having lived in some of their communities for more than 2,500 years. Between 1948 and 1972, 820,000 Jews left Arab countries, 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions.

EXPROPRIATION AT ITS FINEST^

Had Israel's war of Independence ended in the favor of the Arab states what would happen to these people^?. I guess it's easier to focus on what Jews had to say than on what Arab
leaders did, and are still doing to this day(including those in the Palestinian Autonomy).


And as for :

Palestinian Refugees
About 600,000 Palestinian (other estimates range form 500,000 to 800,0000) fled Israel between 1947 and 1949, fundamentally because of the Arab states' rejection of the United Nation *partition plan and invasion of Israel. The refugees fled out of fear of war and in response to Arab leaders' calls for Arabs to evacuate the areas allocated to the Jews until Israel had been eliminated. In a handful of cases, Palestinians were expelled. A majority of the refugees and their descendants now live in the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. About 360,000 Palestinians fled eastern Jerusalem, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights during and after Israel's defensive 1967 War. Palestinian who fled in 1967 are technically considered displaced persons and do not have official refugee status. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency estimated that 175,000 of these 360,000 Palestinians were refugees from the 1948 War. The May 4, 1994, Gaza-Jericho Accord calls for Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan, and Egypt to form a Continuing Committee to discuss the 1967 displaced persons. The problem of the 1947-1949 refugees, on the other hand, is to be left for the “final status” negotiations under the terms of the Israeli-PLO Declaration of Principles of September 13, 1993.


Partition Plan(s)
Proposals for dividing Palestine into autonomous areas controlled by Jews and Arabs. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assemly adopted a partition plan that called for the division of Mandate Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.


Who caused 500,000-800,000 Arabs to flee? Who caused a similar amount of Jews in Arab states to leave their homes?- apparently the same factors(Arab Autocracies).


You're saying there were no Political Goals when the entire Palestinian Arabs' Self Determination is in fact a Political Goal and the reason it wasn't as organized in the 19th century was because future autocratic leaders were only in the process of gaining power.

Saying Zionists were fond of the mandates is complete propaganda bullshit! lol@"I'm dealing with facts"

Fact is Zionists were the ones to obstruct both mandates in every way possible as well as their rules unlike the locals who lived under occupation for hundreds of years.

The most major expulsions of Arabs was due to Arab States' threats and actions(those who chose to stay welcomed Zionism and its enterprise and became citizens of Israel).



P.S I guess it's hard for you to see the difference between Europeans and European Jews. The Jewish Europeans you're talking about were slaughtered and discriminated for hundreds of years
in Europe but you choose to present their claim of a national home as merely a colonialist notion, how convenient, much rather grant it to people who were fond of living under occupation for centuries due to lack of national indentity, and who were manipulated by power thirsty Amirs who wanted to become kings into a game of nationalism and self-determination.

[J @ M @ L]

Since you don't accept facts... maybe I'll just give you some opinions... since that's all you're able to give me...

The end of Zionism

Israel must shed its illusions and choose between racist oppression and democracy

Avraham Burg
Monday September 15, 2003
The Guardian

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.
There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. You can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Travelling on the fast highway that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don't even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated. We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below - from the wells of hatred and anger, from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the people: the time for illusions is over. The time for decisions has arrived. We love the entire land of our forefathers and in some other time we would have wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen. The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East. There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the world's only Jewish state - not by means that are humane and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater land of Israel? No problem. Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system of racial separation here, with prison camps and detention villages.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys and expel them en masse - or separate ourselves from them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is no middle path. We must remove all the settlements - all of them - and draw an internationally recognised border between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian national home. The Jewish law of return will apply only within our national home, and their right of return will apply only within the borders of the Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box.

The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples. False visions of barbed wire and suicide bombers, or a recognised international border between two states and a shared capital in Jerusalem.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because some would like to join the government at any price, even the price of participating in the sickness. But while they dither, the forces of good lose hope. Anyone who declines to present a clear-cut position - black or white - is collaborating in the decline. It is not a matter of Labour versus Likud or right versus left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers. What's needed is not a political replacement for the Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad - Jewish and non-Jewish alike, presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people - should choose as well. They must reach out and help Israel to navigate the road map toward our national destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of peace, justice and equality.

· Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset in 1999-2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel. Reprinted with permission of The Forward, which translated and adapted this essay from an article that originally appeared in Yediot Aharonot

[I TO DA GEEZY]

I'm not gonna respond anymore because you're no better than people who deny the Holocaust and I'll leave you with: You're a tool, and I pity you.

I'm gonna level with you, doesn't^ make you seem any more credible when you keep coming back!

Avraham Burg is a left winger, I agree with some of the points he makes, but you know what they say "The best way to hide a lie is between truths".

Israeli road blocks are not there because soldiers have too much spare time on their hands, but because acts of terrorism were there before.
Poverty in the Palestinian Autonomy is far from being an Israeli achievement especially due to the billions of support dollars(received subsequently to Oslo from EU and the U.S) that were channeled by the PLO into terrorism funding.
Palestinian terrorism surfaced during peace treaties.

Burg's attempt to hold Israel responsible for Palestinian acts of terrorism is deplorable, and in fact, opposite to reality. So you can see the difference, try finding Palestinian former or current 'politicians'  that would admit to Israel's military coercion due to Palestinian terrorism, it is possible that you will only find one statement from Abu Mazen.

[I TO DA GEEZY]

lol.^Eu and Israel... Israel also negotiates with UFOs, you know.