Author Topic: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol  (Read 290 times)

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Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« on: January 06, 2006, 12:11:34 AM »
ROME (Reuters) - Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus evolution.

An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona", or impersonation.

"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.

"In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.

"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.

"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will to decide if Christ exists or not."

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.

"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.

my throat hurts, its hard to swallow, and my body feels like i got a serious ass beating.

LOL @ this fudgepacker
 

Sikotic™

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 12:40:06 AM »
This reminds me of some movie with Antonio Banderas I saw back in the day where he tried to see whether Jesus really existed. It was called The Body I think.
 

J Bananas

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 01:02:19 AM »
I'm scarface coked up you know what?
 

K A I N

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 05:50:08 AM »
If Jesus doesn't show up then he's fake  ;)
 

Machiavelli

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 08:07:00 PM »
wtf ???
 

mauzip

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2006, 08:44:28 AM »
Has this happened before? If so, what were the outcomes?
 

Indie Visual

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2006, 11:38:15 AM »
Jesus is bullshit and never existed.
 

h cottie is bac-tive?

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2006, 04:33:36 AM »
Italian people are fuckin nuts! ???

I WENT TO STAPLES CENTER WEN I WAS WALKING MY GOLD RAG FALL OF MY POCKET AND THE GROUND WAS WET TO AND DIRTY MY RAG GOT DIRTY A LIL BIT PULL IT IT BACK AND MAKE SURE IT WOULD NOT DROP AGAIN ROCKING MY RAG AGAIN HOMIE 8
 

Kassem

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2006, 08:05:18 AM »
jesus did exist but he wasn't called jesus,that why they might not find him,they should check up his mum name in thier birth records ,then track him down 8)
United Arab States
 

Gangstauu

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2006, 08:10:51 AM »
of course he exist. duh



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Don Seer

Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 09:55:05 AM »
 

Noname

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Indie Visual

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2006, 10:21:06 AM »
of course he exist. duh

why?

why not?

why not not?  lol.  if you're answer to wether jesus existed is "why not?" you have problems... is jesus a myth.. why not.
 

Noname

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2006, 10:25:32 AM »
of course he exist. duh

why?

why not?

why not not?  lol.  if you're answer to wether jesus existed is "why not?" you have problems... is jesus a myth.. why not.

no i meant show me why he didnt existed.
 

Don Seer

Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2006, 10:55:38 AM »
of course he exist. duh

why?

why not?

why not not?  lol.  if you're answer to wether jesus existed is "why not?" you have problems... is jesus a myth.. why not.

no i meant show me why he didnt existed.

no.. show proof me that he did!!!
 

Sikotic™

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2006, 02:43:44 PM »
I think its pretty obvious a man named Jesus existed. Whether or not you believe he did what was described in the New Testament is another story.
 

Indie Visual

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2006, 04:29:17 PM »
of course he exist. duh

why?

why not?

why not not?  lol.  if you're answer to wether jesus existed is "why not?" you have problems... is jesus a myth.. why not.

no i meant show me why he didnt existed.

Here's the wikipedia article, it present both sides (for and against) the Jesus myth (sorry Encyclopedia Britannica isn't working for me this week):

Jesus-Myth * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth

The Jesus-Myth is a sceptical position on the historicity of Jesus, claiming that Jesus did not exist as a historical character, but functioned instead as an abstract, symbolic, and metaphorical allusion to a higher knowledge. The theory has not found widespread acceptance among mainstream scholars and historians.

Background
The first scholarly proponent of the Jesus Myth idea was probably nineteenth century historian Bruno Bauer, who argued that the true founder of Christianity was the Alexandrian Jew Philo. His arguments made little impact at the time. In the early twentieth century, however, a few other scholars published arguments in favor of the Jesus Myth idea. These treatments were more influential and merited several book-length responses by historians and New Testament scholars. In recent years, the Jesus Myth has had few academic proponents but has been advanced by William B. Smith and George Albert Wells, as well as by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, and Earl Doherty.

The term "Jesus Myth" actually covers a broad range of ideas, but fundamentally what they all have in common is the notion that the narrative of the Gospels portrays a figure who never actually lived. There are many different views in the Jesus Myth regarding the nature of the early texts. Earl Doherty argues that Jesus is a historicized mythic figure created out of the Old Testament, whom the early Christians experienced in visions, as Paul says he did. Joseph Atwill, on the other hand, argues that Jesus is the deliberate and malefic creation of powerful Romans of the family of Vespasian, who sought to divide and destroy Judaism. Hence in Atwill's version, there really is a historical Jesus, but he is Vespasian's son Titus, and the gospels are a complex allegory of his conquest of Judea. Amongst themselves mythicists disagree on the dating and meaning of the early Christian texts, with recent mythicists like Doherty hewing to mainstream scholarly dating that puts the gospels toward the end of the first century, and radical critics like Hermann Detering (The Fabricated Paul) arguing that the early Christian texts are largely forgeries and products of the mid and late second century.

At the moment, most historians and New Testament scholars consider the Jesus Myth idea as resolved in favor of Jesus' historicity. Nevertheless, Earl Doherty has infused the Jesus Myth idea with fresh vigor with his website and publication of his book, The Jesus Puzzle. Doherty's treatment of the issue has received much attention on the internet from both sides of the debate, including favorable reviews by skeptics Dr. Robert M. Price and Internet Infidels founder Richard Carrier. No peer-reviewed work on the subject exists and the theory has had little impact on the consensus within academia of Jesus' historicity.

Arguments in support of the Jesus myth:

- Lack of early non-Christian references to Jesus. Advocates of the Jesus Myth idea point out that the earliest references to Jesus are by Christian writers. They argue that no Roman or Jewish sources from the first century mention him. The most cited example for a non-Christian reference to Jesus is Josephus, whose Antiquities contains two references to Jesus. But the first reference, the Testimonium Flavianum, contains obvious Christian content that a Jew such as Josephus would not have written and is not mentioned by second-century Christian authors. The second reference, which mentions Jesus along with his brother James, is also disputed.[1]

- Lack of references to the historical Jesus in the letters of Paul. The letters of Paul are widely accepted as the earliest Christian documents. Yet they contain few references to the details of Jesus' life and ministry as reported in the Gospels. Advocates of the Jesus Myth idea believe that this level of references is best explained by docetic interpretations of Jesus, or Jesus not existing whatsoever and having originally been an allegory.

- Pauline historical references should be viewed in their Hellenistic religious context. Earl Doherty has argued that Christianity came of age in a Hellenistic era which divided the universe into "spheres" of higher and lower areas. According to Mr. Doherty, Paul can speak of events that sound as if they happened on earth, but in fact happened in a celestial realm. As a result, the references to events interpreted by Christianity as referring to an historical Jesus in Paul's letters took place in one of the higher worlds, and not on earth, just as in myth the Greek and Roman gods carried out events in higher worlds far from our own.

- Old Testament origins of the Jesus narrative. It is widely accepted that the Gospel accounts were influenced by the Old Testament. Advocates of the Jesus Myth believe that the gospels are not history but a type of midrash; creative narratives based on the stories and prophecies in the Hebrew Bible. As such, they cannot be used as sources to demonstrate the existence of a historical Jesus.[4]

- Inconsistencies Between the Gospels Make them Worthless as Historical Documents Price and other Jesus-Myth advocates argue that the inconsistencies between the Gospels, birth stories, genealogies, chronologies, and other parts of the narrative makes them worthless as historical documents. According to these authors, the Gospels provide no meaningful historical information about the time Jesus was alleged to have lived, but only about the authors of the Gospels and their communities. [5]

- Similarities to the Gospel accounts in earlier mediterranian religions. Some advocates of the Jesus Myth idea argue that the story of Jesus as found in the Gospels reveals remarkable parallels with “dying-and-rising” savior gods well known in the pagan world in the first century. (See The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy). The Jesus Mysteries argues that Jewish mystics adapted the pagan myths of Osiris-Dionysus into a myth of their own, so as to impart certain spiritual teachings.

- The lack of sound methodology for determining the existence of an historical Jesus. Although seldom remarked on by New Testament scholars, some Jesus-Myth advocates argue that historians lack any reliable and widely accepted methodology for determining what is historical and what is not. As J. D. Crossan comments, "I do not think, after two hundred years of experimentation, that there is any way acceptable in public discourse or scholarly debate, by which you can go directly into the great mound of the Jesus tradition and separate out the historical Jesus layer from all later strata."(p149). While this is not an argument that Jesus did not exist any more than it is an argument that Paul or Napolean did not exist, Jesus-Myth advocates believe it does call into question the results of historical inquiry into Jesus of Nazareth.


Arguments against the Jesus myth

- Josephus provides reliable evidence about the historical Jesus. Although most opponents of the Jesus Myth idea agree that Christian scribes corrupted the manuscripts containing the Testimonium Flavianum, they point out that most modern scholars believe that the core of the Testimonium is authentic and constitutes a reliable first-century non-Christian reference to the historical Jesus.[6]. The second reference to Jesus, which says that "Jesus called Christ" was the brother of James the Just, in Josephus' Antiquities, is considered authentic by most scholars.[7] The silence of other contemporary non-Christian sources is attributed to the relative unimportance of the historical Jesus at the time as viewed by Romans, Greeks, and most Jews.
See also: Josephus on Jesus

- Pauline evidence of a historical Jesus. Opponents of the Jesus Myth idea claim that the occasional and epistolary nature of Paul’s correspondence are sufficient explanations for the lack detail about the historical Jesus. Unlike the gospels, Paul’s letters were written in response to specific problems unrelated to the details of the life of Jesus. Moreover, despite their occasional nature, Paul’s letters contain a number of references conventionally seen as references to the historical Jesus (See, e.g., Gal. 1:19, 3:16, 4:4, Rom. 1:3, 3:1, 15:8, and 1 Cor. 11:23-25, 15:4). Mythicists argue that these references are not in fact references to a truly historical Jesus are dismissed by opponents as based on questionable translations.[8][9].

- The Gospels are ancient biographies and impart at least some historical information about Jesus. Though conceding that the gospels may contain some creativity and midrash, opponents of the Jesus Myth idea argue that the gospels are more akin to ancient Graeco-Roman biographies. (See What Are the Gospels? A Comparison With Graeco-roman Biography, by Richard A. Burridge). Although scholars do not agree on the exact nature of this genre, works in it attempted to impart historical information about historical figures, but were not comprehensive and could include legendary developments. Nevertheless, as ancient biographies, proponents of Jesus' existence believe they contain sufficient historical information to establish his historicity. In fact, many scholars believe that the gospels are generally reliable sources of information about the historical Jesus.

- Not so parallel pagan myths. The supposed parallels with pagan myths has gained little traction in the academic community. The Jesus Mysteries has been criticized for heavy reliance on out-dated secondary sources and for confusing the issue of causation (just who was borrowing from whom). Others have questioned the nature of the supposed dying-and-rising pagan saviors and their similarity to the Gospel accounts of Jesus.

- Silence of Christianity’s opponents. Professor Robert Van Voorst asks why, “if Christians invented the historical Jesus around the year 100, no pagans and Jews who opposed Christianity denied Jesus’ historicity or even questioned it.” (The Study of Jesus Outside the New Testament, page 15).

- Insufficient time for legendary development. Historian A. N. Sherwin-White, commenting on form-critical approaches to the New Testament gospels, contends that the texts should be taken as containing a historically accurate core because it is implausible that all such material would be erased by oral transmission in the relevant cultural milieu. “Certainly a deal of distortion can affect a story that is given literary form a generation or two after the event ... But in the material of ancient history the historical content is not hopelessly lost. ... Herodotus enables us to test the tempo of myth-making, and the tests suggest that even two generations are too short a span to allow the mythical tendency to prevail over the hard historic core of the oral tradition.” (Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament, pages 189-90). Opponents of the Jesus Myth idea argue that this consideration makes mythicism implausible as an explanation of the origins of Christianity.
 

Indie Visual

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2006, 06:20:04 PM »
Here's Penn & Teller going over the Jesus thing... they bring up Apollonius, or Jesus before their was a Jesus lol... it's fucking hilarious

 

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2006, 10:24:25 PM »
i personnaly saw god when i was younger. i think it's hard to determine if he existed or not because it's a matter of faith. If it was proven that jessus existed and he did all it said he did everybody would have faith. But believing in a god who love all of us is to hard for some people because we live in a crazy world and such great act of love seems impossible. And even if i didn't believe in god i would follow the precept of the new testament because i think what jesus tried to explain us to me is logical and it explain all our pain and sadness. Some believe in Religion, Some believe in science and fact, i believe in both
 

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2006, 05:36:09 PM »
i personnaly saw god when i was younger. i think it's hard to determine if he existed or not because it's a matter of faith. If it was proven that jessus existed and he did all it said he did everybody would have faith. But believing in a god who love all of us is to hard for some people because we live in a crazy world and such great act of love seems impossible. And even if i didn't believe in god i would follow the precept of the new testament because i think what jesus tried to explain us to me is logical and it explain all our pain and sadness. Some believe in Religion, Some believe in science and fact, i believe in both

Ok, what did "God" look like and how did you know it was God and not some bizarre dream?  Also, what's in the New Testament what's anything new moral-wise.  You know, people loved each other before Jesus, and people were *ACTUALLY* capable of being moral beings before the fucking Bible.  I don't need a book to tell me to love my neighbor and be a good person.
 

jeromechickenbone

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2006, 11:26:57 PM »
Here's Penn & Teller going over the Jesus thing... they bring up Apollonius, or Jesus before their was a Jesus lol... it's fucking hilarious



Thanks for that.  The Apollonius story is hilarious, and there's probably 1000 more just like it.  The scariest thing in that video is that the Ph. D guy who insisted on being called "Doctor".  Just goes to show that just because you have a piece of paper that says you are intelligent, doesn't mean you are.

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KiCkAsS

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Re: Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide. lol
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2006, 02:18:50 AM »
 :D