Mobb Deep ft. 50 and Nate Dogg - Have a Party

[Eihtball]

So because it's 2006 we should be a lot more accepting of bubblegum rap? Nobody's saying it needs to have the same sound as back then.  Don't try to make it sound like they're still being innovative by putting 50 and G-Unit all over their tracks cause thats a fuckin joke.  They're just trying to push more units which is great from a business standpoint, but sucks from an artistic standpoint. Shit, Mobb Deep should put Britney Spears on their shit.  How about Justin Timberlake?

Since when does everything 50 and G-Unit do = pop?  That's not to say they don't make pop rap, but that's sure as hell not the ONLY shit they do - G-Unit can be gutter when they want to be (and they have been).

I didn't pick up Snoop's last two albums because he's decided he's gonna go with singles produced by the Neptunes only.  And i think the Neptunes have done some slick ass work (i love the Clipse). But it's the same principal - i'm not going to condone this trend in hip-hop that says "hey, whoever is at the top of the album sales this week is who is gonna be on my record".  How about not following every fucking trend that comes out? Do you people not feel like mainstream hip hop is incredibly watered down? I sure as hell do - and it wasn't always that way.

Hate to break it to you, but in the rap game, that's how you stay relevent.  That's what distinguishes the artists who have 2-year careers from the artists who have careers spanning decades - and Snoop is a poster boy for this.  In 1993, Dr. Dre and the G-Funk style WAS at the top - that was what was pop, what the mainstream was embracing.  And Snoop has ALWAYS been a pop-gangsta since his career began - he was back then, and he still is now.  The reason why Snoop is one of the most successful rappers ever (with a career spanning almost 15 years now) is because unlike too many other cats, he's shown a knack for adapting to the times.  That's why he still sells Platinum with every release while his homies (Daz, Kurupt, and Warren G, among others) are nothing but has-been dinosaurs of the G-Funk era (and yet they still probably continue to delude themselves that they're just "keeping it real" and refusing to go pop, even though they WERE considered pop back in their day).

And yeah, you're right that mainstream rap wasn't always watered down, but it sure as hell was by the time Snoop came out - if anything, "The Chronic" is pretty much THE album that watered down gangsta/hardcore rap so that pop audiences would embrace it, and both Snoop and Dre were key figures in this shift (we recently talked about this in a thread I made...check it out).

[jeromechickenbone]

Since when does everything 50 and G-Unit do = pop?  That's not to say they don't make pop rap, but that's sure as hell not the ONLY shit they do - G-Unit can be gutter when they want to be (and they have been).

You're right - Candy Shop and Just a Lil Bit were some gutter ass songs.  I'm playin, and i understand your point.  You and I both know those songs are made because there is an audience for that music.  Typically either female, teeny bop, or the most casual of listeners (ie non music critic).  Why is it that a lot of cats (especially in this thread) give niggas a pass when they drop shit like this?  This shit don't happen in other genres.  You never had people like "Well Pink Floyd (or Public Enemy, the Beatles, Rage Against the Machine, Living Colour, Jimi Hendrix, insert a credible musician) dropped a pussy ass single, but that was just to exploit people that don't know better, and they got paid so i ain't trippin".  What the fuck is this? REAL music is artistic expression that doesn't compromise and pander to an audience.  For some reason people find that acceptable in hip-hop.  Thats really on an uncle tom type tip to be honest.

Hate to break it to you, but in the rap game, that's how you stay relevent.  That's what distinguishes the artists who have 2-year careers from the artists who have careers spanning decades - and Snoop is a poster boy for this.  In 1993, Dr. Dre and the G-Funk style WAS at the top - that was what was pop, what the mainstream was embracing.  And Snoop has ALWAYS been a pop-gangsta since his career began - he was back then, and he still is now.  The reason why Snoop is one of the most successful rappers ever (with a career spanning almost 15 years now) is because unlike too many other cats, he's shown a knack for adapting to the times.  That's why he still sells Platinum with every release while his homies (Daz, Kurupt, and Warren G, among others) are nothing but has-been dinosaurs of the G-Funk era (and yet they still probably continue to delude themselves that they're just "keeping it real" and refusing to go pop, even though they WERE considered pop back in their day).

Really? Thats the way they stay relevant huh?  Whats your definition of relevant though?  Do you mean sales wise or relevant from an artistic standpoint?  And by stating that the only reason Dre and Snoop were successful because they were pop gangsta's is funny to me.  By this admission, why wasn't every album that was dropped by a gangsta rapper going 5x plat?  Surely you realize there was obviously distinguishing features that seperated the innovators from the imitators? Dre hasn't had his success because he "tries to stay relevant" - he has success because he is a musical genius which trandscends and trend going on at the time.  Just because he curses isn't the reason he's one of the greatest to ever do it.  As for the "dinosaurs", the problem really isn't that they refuse to "stay relevant" (in my terms "sell out), it's that they sound really generic.  Those guys were all "Scottie Pippen" to Dre's "Michael Jordan".  Back in the early / mid 90's you could argue that Daz, Kurupt, and even Warren G were bona fide gods.  Maybe top 50 to ever do it.  Fast forward a few years and all the sudden everybody is like "Damn, them niggas fell off".  No they didn't, its just that they ain't playin with Jordan anymore - simple and plain.

And yeah, you're right that mainstream rap wasn't always watered down, but it sure as hell was by the time Snoop came out - if anything, "The Chronic" is pretty much THE album that watered down gangsta/hardcore rap so that pop audiences would embrace it, and both Snoop and Dre were key figures in this shift (we recently talked about this in a thread I made...check it out).

You think the mainstream hip-hop was watered down at this point?  This era is widely regarded as the golden age of hip hop.  A time when music was extremely competitive and some of the greatest albums EVER released.  And I did read your thread about if The Chronic had a negative impact on hip-hop (if thats the one you're talking about).  To me, thats just a "Yin and Yang" arguement.  I could argue that any critically acclaimed album was actually negative for it's genre.  If this is your arguement, you ought to not start with The Chronic.  Look at the Sugar Hill Gang (sampling "Good Times" - lead to Puff jacking every 80's beat), Paid in Full (fault Rakim for revolutionizing the MC).  These obviously had a bigger impact than the Chronic.  Should we say these had a negative impact as well?

[Eihtball]

You're right - Candy Shop and Just a Lil Bit were some gutter ass songs.  I'm playin, and i understand your point.  You and I both know those songs are made because there is an audience for that music.  Typically either female, teeny bop, or the most casual of listeners (ie non music critic).  Why is it that a lot of cats (especially in this thread) give niggas a pass when they drop shit like this?  This shit don't happen in other genres.  You never had people like "Well Pink Floyd (or Public Enemy, the Beatles, Rage Against the Machine, Living Colour, Jimi Hendrix, insert a credible musician) dropped a pussy ass single, but that was just to exploit people that don't know better, and they got paid so i ain't trippin".  What the fuck is this? REAL music is artistic expression that doesn't compromise and pander to an audience.  For some reason people find that acceptable in hip-hop.  Thats really on an uncle tom type tip to be honest.

I've actually said before that yeah, in general, I think most rappers who are willing to put out degrading stereotypes of their own people so that they can make money are "Uncle Toms", and this includes both pop-rappers and a number of rappers I listen to - I've often said that almost anyone who's "gangsta" is selling out, if you think about it.

On the other, complaining about certain rappers for putting out music that you don't like is counter-productive anyway.  The hip-hop community tends to make scapegoats out of its most popular artists (50 being one of the best examples right now), but that's not going to do shit.  I always hear muh'fuckas asking, "Why doesn't Talib or Mos Def or Common actually call 50 or Ludacris by name and condemn them for putting out negative music?"  Because you can't beat all the 50 Cents and Ludacris' in the world unless you get at the source - these white-owned major labels that refuse to play anything that doesn't appeal to broad audiences of white folks.  Unless you deal with them, a new 50 Cent will arise for every one that gets disgraced and run out of hip-hop.  It's just like what KRS was doing with Nelly a few years back - he figured he was doing hip-hop a service by beefing with a pop-rapper who was perceived as a "sellout", when he really wasn't doing shit.

Oh, yeah, and rock doesn't give "sellouts" free passes necesarily, either.  Look at how much shit people gave James Taylor when he first came out, because his lyrics were introspective in an era where rock was supposed to be revolutionary and focused on the greater good (not the self).  Punkers also tend to lambast their so-called sellouts (Blink-182 is pretty much to punk what 50 is to rap).

Really? Thats the way they stay relevant huh?  Whats your definition of relevant though?  Do you mean sales wise or relevant from an artistic standpoint? 

Either one, usually both at the same time.  I think that if an artist refuses to let their music mature and re-invent themselves, nobody's going to care about them...there's a point where even their fans will get sick of them putting out the same type of shit over and over.  If you ain't contributing anything new to the game, you ain't relevent anymore.  Sales aren't necesarily a reflection of this (since the public isn't necesarily smart), but in general, I think it's often fair to say that if a certain artist finds their sales declining over the years, that's because they're not finding a way to stay relevent in the ever-changing hip-hop scene.

And by stating that the only reason Dre and Snoop were successful because they were pop gangsta's is funny to me.  By this admission, why wasn't every album that was dropped by a gangsta rapper going 5x plat?  Surely you realize there was obviously distinguishing features that seperated the innovators from the imitators?

That's not what I said...I simply said that Snoop was successful initially because in '93, Dre was one of the most popular producers in hip-hop - but yeah, he and Snoop were popular because they gave the public what it wanted: Gangsta rap that had a party vibe to it.  And yeah, they were GOOD at it - which is why they went multi-Platinum while many of their imitators didn't.  The last sentence is exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

Dre hasn't had his success because he "tries to stay relevant" - he has success because he is a musical genius which trandscends and trend going on at the time.  Just because he curses isn't the reason he's one of the greatest to ever do it. 

You're kidding yourself if you think Dre hasn't tried to stay relevent before - when he put out "The Aftermath", it was a commercial dissapointment because he'd failed to properly update his style and the public was getting tired of it.  He reinvented himself with "2001" and Eminem's albums.  Yeah, Dre may be a genius, but that doesn't mean he's never had his low points - in '96, everyone was writing him off as a has-been, and he worked damn hard to make himself relevent again.

 

As for the "dinosaurs", the problem really isn't that they refuse to "stay relevant" (in my terms "sell out), it's that they sound really generic.  Those guys were all "Scottie Pippen" to Dre's "Michael Jordan".  Back in the early / mid 90's you could argue that Daz, Kurupt, and even Warren G were bona fide gods.  Maybe top 50 to ever do it.  Fast forward a few years and all the sudden everybody is like "Damn, them niggas fell off".  No they didn't, its just that they ain't playin with Jordan anymore - simple and plain.

Neither "Dogg Food" nor "Regulate" had Dre produce a single track, and "Regulate" wasn't even a Death Row release (it came out on Def Jam).

Their appearances on "The Chronic" certainly helped them gain attention, but the reason that DPG and Warren G were successful back then is because the style of music they did (G-Funk) was extremely popular at the time, and that helped them go multi-Platinum.  But when the G-Funk era ended (as it did in '96), so did their careers.  That wouldn't be a problem if they reinvented themselves, but the problem is that those cats are still making the exact same kind of music they were making 10 years ago, and most people can't be bothered to care.  That's not to say the music is bad - it just doesn't reflect growth, and it's the "same ol, same ol", so it's not pushing artistic boundaries and thus, not relevent to today.

Besides, what about Snoop?  He still works with both DPG and Warren G regularly, yet even when he, Warren, and Nate reunited for the 213 album, it failed to take off.  Why?  Because they chose to do a played-out style of music that not many people listen to anymore.  In comparison, Snoop's "R&G" album was quite successful because it was updated for the times.

You think the mainstream hip-hop was watered down at this point?  This era is widely regarded as the golden age of hip hop.  A time when music was extremely competitive and some of the greatest albums EVER released.  And I did read your thread about if The Chronic had a negative impact on hip-hop (if thats the one you're talking about).  To me, thats just a "Yin and Yang" arguement.  I could argue that any critically acclaimed album was actually negative for it's genre.  If this is your arguement, you ought to not start with The Chronic.  Look at the Sugar Hill Gang (sampling "Good Times" - lead to Puff jacking every 80's beat), Paid in Full (fault Rakim for revolutionizing the MC).  These obviously had a bigger impact than the Chronic.  Should we say these had a negative impact as well?

"The Chronic" was most definitely NOT from the "Golden Age" - if anything, it was the album that ENDED the Golden Age.  "The Chronic" started a new era - the West Coast gangsta (G-Funk) era, the one in which the West Coast was on top for a period of about 4 years (1992 to 1996) and when everyone outside of the West hated G-Funk as much as everyone outside of the South hates Crunk today.  With a few exceptions (N.W.A., Ice-T, and Geto Boys), I would generally not classify gangsta rappers as part of the "Golden Age".  The Golden Age was all about "my Adidas", Afrocentrism, and "parents just don't understand" - that's the era in which I first started listening to hip-hop, so it's hard for me to put anything after '92 into it.

And your "Yin and Yang" argument makes no fucking sense here.  There's a point where you can reach extremism in trying to make such comparisons, which is definitely the case there.  The simple fact is, "The Chronic" is the album that moved gangsta rap completely into the mainstream and began the cracker's infatuation with gangsterism that continues to this day, and once it did, almost no other artist with any other type of message could hope to gain exposure.

[Meho]

You both get a prop.I agree with  Eihtball though.

[GangstaBoogy]

So because it's 2006 we should be a lot more accepting of bubblegum rap? Nobody's saying it needs to have the same sound as back then.  Don't try to make it sound like they're still being innovative by putting 50 and G-Unit all over their tracks cause thats a fuckin joke.  They're just trying to push more units which is great from a business standpoint, but sucks from an artistic standpoint. Shit, Mobb Deep should put Britney Spears on their shit.  How about Justin Timberlake?

I didn't pick up Snoop's last two albums because he's decided he's gonna go with singles produced by the Neptunes only.  And i think the Neptunes have done some slick ass work (i love the Clipse). But it's the same principal - i'm not going to condone this trend in hip-hop that says "hey, whoever is at the top of the album sales this week is who is gonna be on my record".  How about not following every fucking trend that comes out? Do you people not feel like mainstream hip hop is incredibly watered down? I sure as hell do - and it wasn't always that way.

its a wrap!