Lifestyle > Train of Thought
democracy in the middle east: Hamas wins Palestinian parliamentary majority
Real American:
The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.
Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts. Palestinians are shit.....I support Israel 100%.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: Real American on January 26, 2006, 04:38:12 PM ---Palestinians are shit
--- End quote ---
And you say you're not racist? LOLLL fucking faggot ass Polack... don't hate others just because your dick is small... it's not our fault you were born an inferior Polack.
nibs:
--- Quote from: Real American on January 26, 2006, 04:38:12 PM ---The results of this election only prove that most Muslims support terrorism. This is a disgrace.
Democracy and human rights are incompatible with Islam. They are too backwards to ever grasp those concepts.
--- End quote ---
the united states department of state has cited israel for human rights violations against their arab citizens.
i am thinking specifically of the 2004 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm
--- Quote ---The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there continued to be problems with respect to its treatment of its Arab citizens. Israeli and international human rights organizations continued to report allegations that security forces tortured detainees during interrogation and that police officers beat detainees. The conditions in military detention camps and Israeli interrogation centers for Palestinian security detainees held in Israel remained poor, and did not meet international standards. Human rights groups issued complaints regarding torture, insufficient living space, and inadequate medical care for those detained in interrogation centers. During the year, the Government detained without charge thousands of persons in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. According to human rights nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) in the country, some security prisoners were sentenced on the basis of coerced confessions.
The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens.
--- End quote ---
problems persist in the 2005 report:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
--- Quote ---The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas. Some members of the security forces abused Palestinian detainees. Conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities remained poor. During the year, the Government detained on security grounds but without charge thousands of persons in Israel. (Most were from the occupied territories and their situation is covered in the annex.) The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. The Government did not recognize marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, compelling many citizens to travel abroad to marry. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances.
<snip>
Laws, judicial decisions, and administrative regulations prohibit torture and abuse; however, during the year, credible NGOs filed numerous complaints with the Government alleging that security forces tortured and abused Palestinian detainees. (The law regarding torture and allegations of torture of Palestinians by Israeli security officials is discussed in the annex to this report.)
<snip>
Israeli law, as interpreted by a 1999 High Court of Justice decision, prohibited torture and several interrogation techniques, such as violent shaking, holding and tying of prisoner in painful positions, shackling, sleep deprivation, covering the prisoner's head with a sack, playing loud music, and prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures, but allowed "moderate physical pressure" against detainees considered to possess information about an imminent attack. However, CATI and the Physicians for Human Rights in Israel (PHR) reported that techniques prohibited by the law were used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation and that security forces often beat Palestinians during arrest and transport. Israeli law prohibits the admission of forced confessions, but most convictions in security cases were based on confessions made before legal representation was available to defendants.
--- End quote ---
using your logic: judiasm is incompatible with human rights. seeing as israel is a democracy, it appears that democracy is also incompatible with human rights. not surprising, seeing as the u.s. also tortures prisoners.
I TO DA GEEZY:
So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?
Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise. Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation. Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on) factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists. Yes there is a correlation, but correlation does not mean causality. There are many factors that lead to the winning of Hamas in the elections. Had Palestinians been Buddhist, Christian or Jewish with the rest of the circumstances remaining, I don't think the results would be any different.
nibs:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on January 27, 2006, 12:32:58 AM ---So, just for the sake of the argument, if I see u hanging with terrorists, helping them out to plan and execute the murder of civilians, then I catch u....I know you've been informed as for future terrorist acts due to which people may die- How do I get the info out of you?....Any suggestion?
--- End quote ---
sometimes you lose. simple as that. if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard, sometimes you lose. if you start torturing people, you are no better than the terrorists. you're torturing (and sometimes killing) people to save lives and for good. terrorists kill to challenger and undo injustices. it's pretty much the same thing. look, it's completely valid to make the argument "we are no better than the terrorists and will not hold ourselves to a higher standard in this fight", and resort to torture and firing missiles into civillian establishments and settlements because maybe a couple terrorists are hiding there. just acknowledge it for what it is.
--- Quote ---Democracy can't defend itself from non democratic factors otherwise.
--- Quote ---
--- End quote ---
hamas was just elected democratically. hamas is clearly a democratic factor now.
democracy is not the holy grail, israel and the united states are routinely attacking and killing civillian targets in their efforts to fight the various resistance forces. how can those affected civillians defend themselves against democracies?
--- Quote ---Judaism has very little to do with laws that are used against Palestinian detainees during interrogation.
--- End quote ---
israel was found to be in violation of their own laws.
--- Quote ---Puting religion into some cause and effect scheme is ridiculous- You can't conclude causality since there might always be a third (fourth, fifth and so on) factor. I don't think Islam is what makes people terrorists.
--- End quote ---
i agree with you which is why i was mocking real american for making those sorts of statements; and pointing out that using his logic judaism was in the same boat with islam. try to follow the thread.
on another note, the same arguments that are used against the followers of islam for being intolerant of other religions can easily be applied to israel as well:
The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report (see Section 1.a.) stated that the "Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that the Government "did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." As a result, "serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure."
<snip>
According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
it's very clear that, according to the u.s. state department, israel has acted in an unfair and discriminatory manner towards it's non-jewish citizens. particularly it's arab citizens.
--- End quote ---
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