Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Denmark editor of cartoons is fired because he considered posting Jewish cartoon
nibs:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 11, 2006, 02:02:09 PM ---Mohamed being portrayed as a terrorist has nothing to do with the fact there is a correlation between Islam and terrorism?
--- End quote ---
terrorism is an ugly word.
would you agree that there is a correlation between zionism and oppression and terrorism?
israel has both oppressed and terrorized the palestinian people.
--- Quote ---Give me a fuckin break mate. Do you think Jews outside of Israel weren't outraged at the anti-Jewish cartoons along the Arab world?
--- End quote ---
you did not understand my point. because judaism is at the heart of zionism, judaism is the root of the palestine problem; and thus it is attacked as zionism is the target.
in contrast, islam is not the root of the "terrorism" problem. the root of the "terrorism" problem is the political/economic/military oppression of people in the muslim world and elsewhere.
it's not the same issue.
--- Quote ---U have underlined my point: When it suits them they say "freedom of speech" when it doesn't they holler "double standard".
--- End quote ---
your point is invalid.
there are two issues here:
b) the second issue is the double standard in the western media.
there is a clear double standard in the west, as islam is not afforded the same level of respect as judaism or christianity. you don't want to acknowledge the double standard in the west, so you turn this around against the muslim world, which leads to the first issue...
a) the primary issue here is that this caricature is an assault against islam; and against muslim populations in the west.
that is the reason for the outrage. just as you are attempting to disparage islam by claiming that there is a correlation between islam and terrorism (correlation != causality); the muslim world is outraged over these continued assaults against islam. the reason we are arguing "hypocrisy" is to expose the "freedom of speech" argument that has been used to justify this printing as a farce. "freedom of speech" does not mask the fact that this is an assault on islam. an assault on a religion in this manner is not something that people should sit down and take.
which brings us back to the second point.
yes, clearly the cartoons in the arab world that you reference are an assault on zionism. these cartoons would be inappropriate if they were not a response to oppression and tyranny by the zionists themselves. there is an understood state of hostility between several arab & muslim states and israel; largely rooted in the arguably criminal existence of the state of israel, the occupation of palestinian and foreign territories, and numerous other horrific transgressions. those anti-zionist cartoons are an expression of that hostility. everyone acknowledges that. to put these cartoons on the same footing as the caricature of muhammad is to suggest that there is an analagous state of hostility between the west and islam.
are you suggesting that the west and islam exist in a state of hostility?
Real American:
--- Quote from: nibs on February 11, 2006, 01:16:11 PM ---
--- Quote from: Real American on February 11, 2006, 08:17:19 AM ---Exactly. But it is even worse. Muslims won't even allow Christians and other religious groups to freely practice their religion.
--- End quote ---
that is basically a lie. it's just not true. across the arab & muslim world; christian and other religious groups are free to practice their religions. depending on the state, proselytizing is either illegal or frowned upon; but other than that they are free to practice. the specifics vary state by state. in some countries islam is the official religion, other countries require their presidents or prime ministers to be muslim; things like that. there have been protests in lebanon over the cartoons, and lebanon has all sorts of religious diversity and the president is christian. without question religion plays a significantly different role in that region, but freedom to practice christianity and even judiasm is largely recognized.
--- End quote ---
Stop with the nonsense, man. You say that Christians can freely practice their religion, except for not being able to proselytize. Guess what niimrod.....seeking converts is part of the Christian religion!!!! Plus, how many governments in the Middle East follow Islamic law to the dismay of non-Muslims? Not to mention countries like Saudi Arabia that outlaw all religion except Islam. Just this past Christmas foreign workers there were arrested for celebrating Christmas! I can post the article if you would like! That is true religious oppression and intolerance, not some stupid cartoon!!!!
Nibs, you are strange. Justifying blatant oppression like outlawing religions but attacking the publication of cartoons???? When you make stupid posts like that you pretty much kill any credibility you have.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: Real American on February 11, 2006, 04:37:55 PM ---When you make stupid posts like that you pretty much kill any credibility you have.
--- End quote ---
LOL @ the irony
nibs:
--- Quote from: Real American on February 11, 2006, 04:37:55 PM ---Stop with the nonsense, man. You say that Christians can freely practice their religion, except for not being able to proselytize. Guess what niimrod.....seeking converts is part of the Christian religion!!!!
--- End quote ---
take two steps back and think about what you are asking. islam accepts most of christianity as the truth. for a christian to proselytize a muslim is for the christian to ask the muslim to deny both the prophet mohammad and the qu'ran. this is effectively heresy and a sin. under shari'a law this is a crime. conversely, the only part of christianity that islam does not accept (to my knowledge) is the idea that jesus was god and not just a prophet. again, proselytizing here would be heresy to a christian, as it is asking a christian to deny christ. this is in a region that has struggled with religious conflict for centuries. frowning upon proselytizing is not unreasonable. depending on the country it's one way (don't proselytize muslims) or two way (no proselytizing anyone) but either way it's understandable.
we are still talking about christians having the freedom to practice and study the tenets of christianity, and assemble in varying degrees. for you to deny this is for you to say "the muslim world should be exactly like the west, anything else is unacceptable". and that type of hardline absolute approach is unreasonable.
--- Quote ---Plus, how many governments in the Middle East follow Islamic law to the dismay of non-Muslims?
--- End quote ---
what do you mean by follow? not that many in terms of state's who's government are based directly on shari'a law.
saudi arabia (100% muslim, by law all saudi citizens are muslim), iran (99% muslim, 90% shiite), egypt (90% muslim), kuwait (85% muslim)
many of the other states recognize shari'a law to some extent, incorporate it in many areas for personal status law, marriages...etc but the governments & constitutions aren't based solely around them; and often apply them differently if at all to non-muslims. syria, lebanon, jordan would be among the least imposing. the populations in these regions can be so overwhelmingly muslim that your argument is almost moot.
--- Quote ---Not to mention countries like Saudi Arabia that outlaw all religion except Islam.
--- End quote ---
saudia arabia is the most extreme. your statements generalized the islamic world as a whole, it's unfair for you to use saudi arabia as an example.
--- Quote ---Just this past Christmas foreign workers there were arrested for celebrating Christmas! I can post the article if you would like! That is true religious oppression and intolerance!!!!
--- End quote ---
the bottom line should be "don't go to saudi arabia if you aren't muslim". all saudi citizens are required to be muslim. it's ironic that the state with the closest ties to the u.s. would be unquestionably the worst in terms of religions tolerance. ofcourse, this issue could only affect foreign workers and foreigners in general as saudi arabia is 100% muslim. in many ways it's arrogant to go to a country like saudi arabia and expect them to embrace your beliefs. the foreign workers should stay at home if they don't want to accept the rule of law in saudi arabia. seriously. why can't a country that's 100% muslim say "no christmas"? what right do foreign workers have to impose their beliefs on some other country? if anything, come to saudi arabia after christmas. and leave before easter, lol!
--- Quote ---Justifying blatant oppression like outlawing religions but attacking the publication of cartoons???? When you make stupid posts like that you pretty much kill any credibility you have.
--- End quote ---
your posts basically reek of intolerance. why do you need to tell muslim countries how to live? why do their laws need to conform to your beliefs? everytime you open your mouth your argument is basically "xyz should be more like the u.s."
#11:
^
because he is ignorant so stop wasting your time proving a point that wont register.
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