Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Denmark editor of cartoons is fired because he considered posting Jewish cartoon
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: nibs on February 12, 2006, 05:09:33 AM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 12, 2006, 03:06:13 AM ---Judaism is at the heart of Zionism?- I would say this is inaccurate at best. The first thing u should know is that Zionism as a movement which lead to the creation of the state of Israel, was primarily a secular movement. Ben-Gurion even censored the word GOD out of the Israeli declaration of independence.
--- End quote ---
at best inaccurate? you are arguing that that zionism was about the creation for the homeland for the jewish people, which only "coincidentall"y represents a people that all share the same faith. all i'm saying is that the faith is inextricably interwined.
--- Quote ---Do not shuffle the concepts of Jewry and Judaism. Jewry is at the heart of Zionism...yes(as in belonging to the Jewish people). But most of the people who were active in the creation of this state were 100% secular. Zionism is based on a historical claim not on a religious one.
--- End quote ---
according to the u.s. state department's human rights report on israel:
The Basic Law and Declaration of Independence recognize the country as a "Jewish and democratic state," establishing Judaism as the country's dominant religion. Civil rights NGOs have accurately charged the Government with the discriminatory allocation of state resources favoring Orthodox Jewish institutions.
i acknowledge that zionism is focused around the notion of a jewish people/ethnic group/race. i maintain that religion is intrinsically a large part of that.
--- Quote ---Unlike the Arab claim to the land which is religious primarily- "Dar Al Islam"-(House of submission- a term for land under Muslim adminstration, it is believed by many Muslims that the creation of a non Muslim entity within it, is bound to fail) the Jewish claim to the land isn't religious- It's practical, and anti-semitism has alot to do with it as well.
--- End quote ---
do you want to argue the various claims to the land, or the cartoons? immigrants were brought in and a state was created on land that other people already occupied. the self-determination of the palestinian people was ignored until the palestinians were driven out of their land. what's more practical than self-determination, which was ignored by the british and the u.n.?
--- Quote ---Take Zionism, how much oppression had it caused (Im not even asking you to look into the circumstances)?
--- End quote ---
alot. millions of refugees and displaced persons. military attacks against civillian residencies.
--- Quote ---Now examine the oppression in the Arab World?
--- End quote ---
can we agree that oppression anywhere is bad?
--- Quote --- (without minding the FACT they were addressing Judaism many times, and not Zionism)
--- End quote ---
i maintain that judaism and zionism are intertwined. refering to a jewish race or ethnic group has oft been discredited, and before the creation of israel there was no state to declare jews as a people to. jews from various backgrounds returned to israel after the state was created. jerusalem was regarded as more of a spiritual homeland by many jews of varying backgrounds.
--- Quote ---Now it's funny u view anti-Jewish cartoons as understandable due to the existence of Israel
--- End quote ---
understandable because of the hostility between the arab world and the jewish "people" because of the existence of israel. understandable in the context of hostility.
--- Quote ---and you refuse to understand the satirical use of strong correlation to hint at causality- between Islam and Terrorism.
--- End quote ---
terrorism is an ugly word with negative connotations. evil connotations. i am rejecting the choice of wording without the context of hostility.
--- Quote ---As for the west and Islam being in a likely state of hostility....hmmm let me think...9-11?
--- End quote ---
the american president and american government do not make that connection between 9/11 and islam. islamic extremists, maybe. but that is not islam as a whole, which is what these cartoons are assaulting
--- End quote ---
1.Creating a homeland for the Jewish People was about creating a refuge for the Jewish People from Anti-Semitism, FIRST AND FOREMOST= Zionism.
Zionism, and specifically the "Zionism" that lead to the creation of the Jewish State, was primarily a secular movement. The people living in Israel nowadays, Jewish People, do not all share the same faith. Before talking about the Faith Jewish people share u should know the FACTS. I live in Israel, I've been raised in a third Generation secular family. The people who were mostly responsible for the creation of Israel were predominantly secular. Ben Gurion, Herzel and more Zionists underlined the secular nature of the future Jewish State before it was declared.
2.Orthodox Jewish institutions- There is a significant Orthodox lobby in Israel. Their parties in the Israeli Parliament are relatively influential due to their voters. One thing though, their grasp on foreign politics is minimal since their voters are insufficient in constituting a majority despite their relative significance. Their platforms usually revolve around social and economic matters and their supporters are religious orthodox Jews.
Arab Parties in Israel- the Israeli Parliament includes representation of Israel's Arab citizens...about 1.5 million citizens approximately(out of a total of about 6,000,000 citizens). These Citizens, much like Jewish Orthodox citizens, are exempt from the army service. In addition, they also recieve welfare like Israel's Jewish citizens. Now you can say Israel discriminates in the favour of certain populations here and there. But such affirmative actions come to ease the life of those whose political culture is Patriarchal, and who have hard time adjusting to the modern and secular way of life which is dominant in Israel. So religion is a consideration, just like it is in the most modern and democratic of coutnries ( like the USA). Culture is a consideration.
These r considerations, not policy dictators. Israel is lead as always by primarily secular people, and in case they're not secular, they r bound by law to leave their own faith out of the equation. Example- Avraham Burg, a religious Jew, is a radical left winger. In Israel religion and leadership are not synonymous like they are in the Arab world.
3.You were the one to mention Israel's "arguable" right to exist. And about how it intertwines with Judaism. I only stated the Zionist claim, unlike the Arab claim to this land, has got little to do with religion but rather with historical circumstances. Cartoons mockin a religion that has little to do with the creation of a state Arabs view as their enemy compared to cartoons mocking the faith of some of the most dangerous terrorists the world has ever witnessed and who were responsible for terrorist acts like 9-11. Both are triggered by ostensible hostility and fear. Double standard is when you're making it appear as though it's understandable to mock one religion, and forbidden to mock another.
nibs:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 12, 2006, 07:29:02 AM ---1.Creating a homeland for the Jewish People was about creating a refuge for the Jewish People from Anti-Semitism, FIRST AND FOREMOST= Zionism.
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only ~50% of the jews in israel are ashkenazi. the other half are sephardi or mizrahi. seeing as we are talking about people of varying ethnic background, the only commonality is the religion. seeing as the sephardi jews were also persecuted during the holocaust (in greece atleast) again the commonality is religion. the law of return applies to judaism as well as ashkenazi geneology as it defines jews both ways, i believe. you can't deny that religion plays a part in this.
--- Quote ---Cartoons mockin a religion that has little to do with the creation of a state
--- End quote ---
we do not agree that religion has little to do with creation of the state.
let's take one step back. if we can agree that israel is based around both the judaic religion as well as jewish ethnic groups; we can logically agree that these cartoons in the arab world mock jews by exxagerating ethnic traits as well as the religion as a whole. it's not as if the arab world only mocks the religion, everything "jewish" is assaulted in those cartoons.
--- Quote ---compared to cartoons mocking the faith of some of the most dangerous terrorists the world has ever witnessed
--- End quote ---
what is this? n.w.a.? all terrorists are dangerous.
--- Quote ---Both are triggered by ostensible hostility and fear. Double standard is when you're making it appear as though it's understandable to mock one religion, and forbidden to mock another.
--- End quote ---
we almost agree. i have always maintained that there was a state of open hostility towards israeli jews because of the palestinian issue. here i believe we agree.
we disagree that there is a state of open hostility between the west and islam. you may say that there is, but western leaders and media largely deny this, hence the hypocrisy. the action of assaulting islam betrays a hostility which the west continues to deny.
we also seem to disagree on the definition of "understandable". why are we disagreeing over "understandable"? if you acknowledge the hostility between the arab world and the jews in israel, why can you not understand that this hostility is born out in the media?
what is not understandable is the west's insistance that it respects islam, yet provokes and disparages islam at the same time.
noone is saying "it's ok the disrespect judaism but not islam". disrespect is disrespect. the disrespect in the arab world occurs in an environment of acknowledged hostility. the disrespect in the west is cloaked under the hypocrisy of "free speech" and the true hostility is denied.
nibs:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on February 12, 2006, 05:20:40 AM ---I think to a certain extent though we have to be careful not to refer to Israel too much though, what you have to remember is that every time we refer to foregin affairs we take the attention away from what is happening in our own backyard.
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in many ways everything is intertwined with whats going on in our backyards. either directly related or a distraction from.
what should we be talking about?
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: nibs on February 12, 2006, 09:56:33 AM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 12, 2006, 07:29:02 AM ---1.Creating a homeland for the Jewish People was about creating a refuge for the Jewish People from Anti-Semitism, FIRST AND FOREMOST= Zionism.
--- End quote ---
only ~50% of the jews in israel are ashkenazi. the other half are sephardi or mizrahi.
--- End quote ---
And? Sephardi Jews weren't the ones to found this state. The common denominator is not their faith but their Jewish-Israelite origin. Btw many Sephardi Jews were also persecuted in the Arab world after the declaration of Israel. If u remember the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab lands (they were expelled and expropriated of their property due to them being Jewish). Again, Israel is primarily a secular modern society...yes, there are Parochial sectors but they are not the mainstream and they are not only Jewish but also Arab. Religion does not dictate the governmental foreign policy of Israel. Hence those cartoons mocking Judaism were just as bad in my view. I disagree that such parallel can't be drawn. I think both cartoons are equally bad and I think it's funny those Muslims didn't oppose as much when it concerned another faith. Some, as u know, even supported anti-Jewish cartoons.
coola:
i agree with the danish govt... why should they print out the cartoons when their embassy was burnt down ? this will be used to piss off the muslims.
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