Lifestyle > Train of Thought

If Hamas must renounce violence, so should Israel

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#11:
yes i know both x and y have hardcore positions yet both x &y havent changed their hardcore positions 'that require modification to acheive peace'. u would know as in some cases u are y or x or whatever and u continue to bash the israeli right?
all im tryin to say is that whenever this whole israel/palestine issue comes up we already know which 2-3 people are gonna start debating.

nibs:

--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on February 20, 2006, 07:30:59 AM ---Democratically electing a party that stands against democracy, should be a good lesson in Political Science for those dominated by a nondemocratic (and maybe even Parochial) political culture. Look how great it worked out for Germany, when Hitler was democratically elected.

--- End quote ---

i'm glad you mentioned hitler and nazi germany.  but you overlooked the true parallels, which is why hitler was actually elected.

a) the german state and peoples had been oppressed by the huge war reparations levied against germany after wwi.  the german govt was ineffective and corrupt.  you see the same thing with the palestinians, israel continues to occupy palestinian lands that were illegally siezed after the 67 war.  the gaza strip, west bank and jerusalem are entirely palestinian lands and israel's continued occupation of those lands is criminal.  fateh and arafat were seen as corrupted, and as having been willing to sell out the palestinian people by surrendering lands which israel had illegally seized in the first place.

b) hitler's platform was a platform of reform, an end to governmental corruption and inefficacy, and german progress.  these were hitler's immediate goals, but ofcourse his agenda stretched far beyond this.  hamas platform has been one of reform, social progress and an end to corruption.  hamas is fully expected to act on those immediate goals, but in addition they are looking to build a strong a palestinian defense force and people question whether they will try to gradually adopt sharia'la law; or continue to support aggressions against israel as well.

these are the real parallels.  in both cases, it was the larger world community that created a situation where an "undesirable" element was able to take power in an oppressed state.  israel and the u.s. are the reason hamas was able to take power.

i don't believe that hamas is remotely comparable to hitler; i hesitate to condemn hamas at all. hamas definitely represents a new direction in palestinian leadership.  fateh was willing to sell out the palestinian peole by surrendering portions of palestinian territories criminally occupied by israel.  hamas will not even recognize israel as a state, let alone surrender any territory.  fateh was corrupt, and dependent on both u.s. and european aid to exist.  hamas is apparently going to turn towards iran, other muslim states and possibly russia and ignore western threats to cut off aid.  western nations created this situation.

J @ M @ L:

--- Quote from: Fallujah Tech on February 20, 2006, 12:15:28 PM ---we have Y shitting on X, and all we ask is that Y stop shitting on X. This isnt hardcore, its common sense

--- End quote ---

Lately we've also been seeing a lot of people shitting on IGeezy... Nibs is enjoying this activity at the moment.

I TO DA GEEZY:

--- Quote from: nibs on February 20, 2006, 02:44:33 PM --- the gaza strip, west bank and jerusalem are entirely palestinian lands and israel's continued occupation of those lands is criminal. 

--- End quote ---

Here's the thing. West Bank was captured from Jordan. Gaza was captured from Egypt. Neither of these states is formally considered to be a Palestinian State. Question: Why weren't these territories considered under occupation, when they belonged to 2 other, NON-PALESTINIAN, states?

In my previous post, I made the only Parallel that was relevant for the matter. According to surveys in the Autonomy, about 70% of the Palestinians who voted for Hamas, are in support of a peace process with Israel. Hence, these people voted for Hamas, while disregarding it's platform regarding a peace process with Israel, while, most likely, favoring Hamas's economic platform. More importantly, this is a "party" that supports suicide bombing, hence, stands for the death of Palestinians and not only Israelis. I understand it takes time for people dominated by a non-democratic political culture, to adjust to democracy. And I think this is going to be a good lesson. After all, Hitler, who openly stood against democracy even prior to his election, was elected DEMOCRATICALLY.

Don Rizzle:
There you go twisting the truth again.....The west bank and gaza were only occupied by egypt and jordan AFTER the end of the british mandate, Gaza was occupied by eqypt but u don't mention the palestinian government which egypt created, which infact was was set up as palestinian state with jureselum as the capitol. Jordan occupied the westbank until 1967 just like eqypt did gaza, however the only area acutally annexed by israel was east jerusalem which no other country has recognised, palestinians still consider it there capitol and are the majority there, israel has no right to this area.

hamas have been not been attacking israel with the truce clearly on the table israel should take the opportunity to work with hamas and engage in peace talks, once there is equality for palestinians there will be no excuse for hamas not to recognise israel and to renounce violence, until then why should they give up their right to self defence? Israel would never even consider that one.... its another david and goliath story, except this time goliath is armed to the teeth sitting in his armored tank stones can't hurt him.

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