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Reason Why Many White People Don't Accept Islam Is Similar To Why The Jews...
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: nibs on March 20, 2006, 07:37:33 AM ---it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected. the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.
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Yup... can't forget Kissinger: "Oil is too important to be in the hands of the Arabs"
Racist fucks
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 13, 2006, 08:42:33 AM ---We had slightly different reasons; you had your views on whether God can be man and that the Quran was never changed, and I had mine on whether God's prophet would have to pick up arms and fight oppressors when a prophet like Moses had God coming in and dealing with it for him.
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it has been claimed that angels fought alongside muhammad at the battle of badr and their intervention is what turned the tide against the quraish tribes. several miracles have been attributed to that battle.
more importantly, the qu'ran portrays human life as a test. trials and struggles such as war and oppression are often portrayed as tests used to separate out the true believers from the pretenders. this is not dissimilar to the tests applied to job (which are referenced in the qu'ran). it is funny that you mention moses, moses is regarded as a muslim; regarded as a prophet, and the qu'ran makes dozens of references to moses leading the israelites out of egypt. the same miracles that you cite from christianity, are cited in islam. moses, jesus, muhammad, abraham...etc are all regarded equally in the qu'ran. from the islamic point of view, christianity is not something wildly different. for the most part it's completely consistent with the qu'ran, it is a form of islam; other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.
Shallow:
Nibs, nothing you are telling me is new to me. I know what Moses is regarded as and I know that they are all mentioned in the Quran. I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine. Here's what it is though; you think Jesus never said that and it was made up years later to make the pagans better accept Jesus or whatever the reason. (P.S. Don't some Muslim's think Jesus lived a couple hundred years after the crucifixion?). So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie. While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired. I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Quran could have been written and kept as the official word and then the same movement that caused Christians to go grow could have went on, in theory. It's just the way I see it, and I don't say you are wrong, anymore than you say I am. We could both be way off, but I choose to belive this while you choose to believe that.
--- Quote from: nibs on March 20, 2006, 07:37:33 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 27, 2006, 04:06:32 PM ---There it is again, you taking a small percentage of whites which represents no where near the minority and make it seem like most whites act like this. It's no different than saying most muslim rioted over the cartoons.
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look at the american government, and this dubai ports issue. 95% of the american government, both democrats and republicans, have made it clear that they just don't trust arabs period. the uae is one of the few arab states (along with kuwait & qatar) that have been helpful and accomodating in the war against iraq. for example the saudis opposed the u.s. using bases in saudi arabia; turkey (not arab, but muslim) denied usage of u.s. bases and their airspace; as a result u.s. troops and operations largely were based in kuwait, qatar and the uae. if the u.s. govt feels they cannot trust one of the few arab states that supported their preemptive war against another arab state (iraq); it's clear that the u.s. government feels it cannot trust any arabs at all. it's clear that this is a position widely held across the u.s; based on the reaction to this dubai issue.
it seems clear to me that in the u.s. the arab world is not respected. the cartoon issue that you referenced make it clear to me that in europe, the muslim world is not respected either.
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I'm talking about the majority of the American people. It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US. Whites greatly outnumbers blacks in the states and it wouldn't even be a fight. Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that. All he has is the small percentage of people he personal knows. This isn't about the US governments portrayal or Henry Kissinger's remarks, which I find more tactical than racist. (Arabs had been an enemy of the Western world and regardlesss of who started that it would be unwise to have a major resource in the hands of a potential enemy. If oil was in Germany in the 40s or Russia Kissinger would have said the same thing about Germans or Russians.)
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on March 21, 2006, 07:05:41 AM ---I love when you say this though; "other than the questionable interpretations that some christian sects have taken towards the nature of christ, and the notion of a trinity.". Some sects? Of the nearly 2 billion Christians, a lot more than "some" have the trinity in their doctrine.
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i was poking fun at you with that line, we just had that argument two weeks ago. :) without question the christians who disavow the trinity and the notion that christ is god are in the minority.
--- Quote ---So you believe what I had been taught is a lie. So by logic I have to believew what you have been taught it is a lie.
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it's nice to say that "our beliefs clash"; but ultimately there are facts beneath all of this. all we are arguing is exactly what we do and don't know.
--- Quote ---While you think the written Gospel was changed I think the Quran was created by man using the old texts and various Greek and pre-Greek sciences and used as a revolutionary tool to roud up troops and keep them inspired.
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the qu'ran clearly states that it exists to reaffirm much of what was already known. jesus, moses, abraham...these are all recognized as muslims; and clearly none of them had the qu'ran. the qu'ran isn't about revealing new secret information; the qu'ran is about reaffirming what is right and what is true. resolving question.
--- Quote ---I don't get why after Jesus, who showed no signs of deadly violence or battle and inspired a movement of spreading faith through sacrifice. Why would Muhammad have to protect the word of God so strongly with swords when Christianity grew so well with out an army of soldiers?
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there are two issues here.
do you respect the old testament? there are plenty of wars and violent acts all throughout the old testament that are sanctioned by god; many of which god is attributed as having directly intervened. so this whole peace/war debate isn't unique to the qu'ran, but a question of how relevant the old testament is to christians.
this issue is easily resolved if you choose to use christs sayings and words as an example for personal conduct but not necessarily guidance for a nation. throughout the qu'ran in all the contexts where violence is condoned, a peaceful resolution is always preferred. the violence, the war...these are always last resorts throughout the qu'ran.
the qu'ran teaches that life is a test. that the physical form is not the true form of an individuals existance...etc. your insistance of peace at all costs ignores those ideas; by trying to oversimplify every problem so that the solution is always the same.
--- Quote ---It just doesn't make sense to me.
--- End quote ---
let's try to make sense of things.
the issues you raise against muhammad and the qu'ran don't challenge any of the fundamental tenets of islam.
you are not challenging daily prayers.
you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor
you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good; jesus fasted afterall.
you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.
these fundamental beliefs in islam are largely the same as the fundamental beliefs in the old testament
with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.
so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.
and that is all i'm saying. islam is really the basis for christianity; and it is only these notions of this trinity concept that anyone is debating.
--- Quote ---I'm talking about the majority of the American people.
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the majority of american people have demonstrated a xenophobic attitude towards arabs.
--- Quote ---It's the same logic that applies to people that say the majority of the American's were on the same side as the Klan back in the day. Well if that was true then there would be no black people in the US.
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how is that example relevant?
what is true is that the majorty of americans were not for full equality either legally or socially. you can look at lincoln's personal notes. you can look at segregation. you can look at the strong opposition to the civil rights movement and early integration. it was not an issue that the majority would stand up for.
noone is saying the majority of americans hate arabs. what's said is a general distrust of arabs has been reaffirmed by this dubai ports incident. a general lack of respect for islam has been demonstrated with this dutch cartoons incidents.
--- Quote ---Infinite made it seem that every, or the majority, of whites in the US write off any arab or muslim as a terrorist and don't regard them as being able to be intelligent, and he has no proof of that.
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i don't know about the intelligence angle; but in general, across america there is a very self-aggrandazing sense of nationalism; and a general lack of appreciation for foreign cultures. foreign cultures and customs are portrayed as "quaint". after 9/11 this has, in the case of arabs and muslims, degenerated into outright disrespect in many ways. this is across politics, the media and pop culture.
Shallow:
1.) I know it was tounge and cheek. I was just having some fun with it.
2.) Obviously the facts cannot be proven either way and I have no intention of debating that. I am perfectly happy believing in what I believe and would rather you beilieve what suited you rather rather than believe what suits but you find uncomfortable. It's not like I think you're going to hell, or that I get to heaven before you. Those issues are of no importance to me. All I worry about is being as good as I can be here on Earth. No point thinking about the other stuff.
3.) I think Jesus didn't write things down because he knew that what is right and what is true can change with the times. There are universal right and wrongs but you don't need a book to know those. Everyone knows them. You can feel them. I guess that's why I believe in the Holy Spirit. I feel that God is in everyone of us and guides us if we let him. Once you right things down they end up becoming dated. From what is written in the Gospels everything Jesus said that sounds dated is a metaphor that applies to today. I never found anything that makes me think "oh, well that's well and good for 2000 years ago but you can't do that today". I see that in the Quran with the position of women. It's not much different than what Paul wrote down. Even Gospels that aren't used because they are deemed heretic make sense to me on a universal level. Here's something fromthe Gospel of Thomas that many think made Jesus look sexist.
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
First you have to remember that the Gospel was written in Greek and Greek at the time was still heavily influenced by Plato and in his writings male and female weren't just man and woman, but words for to separate classes. Obviously women in ancient Greece were given less rights than men. So to me Jesus isn't saying you have to be a man to work for God or take control, but she would have to switch roles and take on roles normally reserved for men, and the women that do this will enter Heaven just like any man would. No where does it say that women that don't will not enter heaven and to assume so would be a fallacy. To me this shows that Jesus knew there would be a time where the roles would get reversed for some and there would be instances where the woman would be head or equal to the head of the family. Based on what I've read and what I was told, nowhere in the Quran could you even make an argument for that because it makes it clear that the man is the head of the household. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to restate this if it isn't true).
Sure the Organized Religion of Islam and The Organized Orthodox and Catholic Churches aren't very different outside of a few technicalities. But I have more problems with thse churches than I do with Islam.
4.) I have great issues with the Old Testament and absolutely never look to it for guidance. I saw Jesus as someone that was sent because everyone before him got it wrong and altered God's words and orders because they thought it would be best for the people. I see Jesus as someone who fixed this or tried to.
I haven't read the old book in a while. Vould you give me examples where God orders a man to kill and lets him go though with it, or where God orders a war?
5.) Let's get my thoughts on these issues out of the way.
you are not challenging daily prayers.- I am not but I also don't see the need of praying. An all knowing being knows when I do things for God and knows that I love God.
you are not challenging charitable donations to the poor- I don't consider them a rule and don't feel they dhould be given unless you want to give. Otherwise it's not charity, it's guilt or sense of duty inspired by fear.
you are not challenging whether or not fasting is good; jesus fasted afterall.- Again, I'm not against it but don't see it as crucial either.
you are not directly challenging that there is one creator, that there is one god.- I really don't care to think of those things on a historical level. I choose to believe and live a certain way, or try to, and I have too many things that I can control that need to be done and figured out before I take time to think about this.
with christianity, noone is challenging the teachings of christ; however, if you insist upon advancing this notion of a trinity...then the fundamental beliefs of that trinity doctrine are in question.
So are the fundamental beliefs that God exists. We have no proof but we advance the notion none the less.
so when you boil this down to a question of beliefs, it's a question of some auxilliary ideas in the quran vs the fundamental ideas of this trinity doctrine.
Auxiliary? Are we talking about the same word that means something is not essential? What exactly is an auxiliary beluef of the Quran with regards to the fundmanetal belief of the Trinity? I hope you're talking about prayer and charity because if you're talking about one God vs the essence of God then your beliefs are just as fundamental as mine.
Islam the basus for Christianity? I guess you're going by the notion that Islam was first but forgotten. To each his own. But It's not just the notion of the trinity that I debate. I debate the necessity of customs and traditions that plague nearly every religion. To me Christianity is not a church or book, but a state of mind and as long as you have the values that are essential to Christianity, the basic right and wrong, you are a Christian, whether you even know who Jesus is or was. The little things mean nothing, because the little things change, but the universal truths stay the same.
As for the whites vs arabs stuff. What I'm trying to say is that deep inside I feel mnost know better but refuse to stand up out of fear of going against the grain. That's why I brough up the Klan. It wasn't that the south desperately wanted blacks to suffer as slaves. Most where just protecting there own life (the most that had no slaves to keep anyway) and there ideas again reflected what they thought they were supposed to say. It's a common human trait and I don't see why what applies everywhere wouldn't play to those two issues. Infinite was looking for a cop out and I was not going to give it to him. People have a hard time accepting what goes far against what they have been taught as right for so long. It is no easier for a muslim to accept the trinity than it is for an American to accept Islam. I just don't think it's hate that makes it hard for people to accept.
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