Lifestyle > Train of Thought
oh oh... someone did some reading...
virtuoso:
That is just absolute nonsense, i want to pick up on your last point, you have clearly ignored the history there the boares settled in Zimbabwe as they were trying to do so they fought the zulus who came from places like mozambique, so stolen? how can you say the white people stole the land the indigenous population of zimbabwe is so damn marginalised they have to beg for scraps from the government. Thus most black people have no more right to the land than the whites there. Racism is racism, and I am sickened that its somehow ok to terrorise white people because of what their ancestors might have done. As for the slavery argument I never denied that the west prospered from millions of black slaves, however again its not black and white, africans had been slave trading before the europeans went into africa, the difference is on the scale organisation and resources. It's also extremely sick that black people should feel so wronged by the west, when in several african countries one of the biggest practiced religions is voodoo. Now the practice of human sacrifices wasn't even banned in voodoo until 1990. So for all of these years black people have been screaming hatred towards the way the west has wronged them and yet don't give a damn when blacks are being murdered in their tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands even by a religion, its bewildering.
Finally don't you see most white people certainly in this area I live are struggling to get by after all the bills are paid, certainly my family are and yet there is still this bullshit propaganda about whitey having this and whitey having that, at the end of the day and as you yourself have acknowledged its the government who profit and prosper. Yet still I have to feel apologetic and guilty about the actions of white people, what the hell? this countries people were serfs until the magna carta was introduced which gave us the bare minimum of human rights, so its entirely feasible that my ancestors had no part in slavery. They were the ones who were slaves, in this country.
nibs:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on April 07, 2006, 04:06:02 PM ---
That is just absolute nonsense, i want to pick up on your last point, you have clearly ignored the history there the boares settled in Zimbabwe as they were trying to do so they fought the zulus who came from places like mozambique, so stolen? how can you say the white people stole the land
--- End quote ---
they were colonizers, they took the land by force. their presence was immediately opposed but they had superior weapons.
--- Quote ---the indigenous population of zimbabwe is so damn marginalised they have to beg for scraps from the government. Thus most black people have no more right to the land than the whites there.
--- End quote ---
the whites have no right to the land. they were forced to relinquish political power but retained control over the land. the region the indigenous people are so poor is that over 70% of the farmlands are owned by less than 1% of the population. the former white settlers. how can 1% own 70% of the arable land?
--- Quote ---Racism is racism, and I am sickened that its somehow ok to terrorise white people because of what their ancestors might have done.
--- End quote ---
so if you steal land and never face any redressing; your family can now keep the land? the sins of the ancestors are egregious. the majority of the agricultural wealth of the nation is lost to a minute portion of the population that invaded the lands and seized control by force. they don't have a right to those lands.
--- Quote ---As for the slavery argument I never denied that the west prospered from millions of black slaves, however again its not black and white
--- End quote ---
the fall out is black and white.
--- Quote ---It's also extremely sick that black people should feel so wronged by the west
--- End quote ---
they were wronged by the west. why should black people ignore those wrongs.
--- Quote ---when in several african countries one of the biggest practiced religions is voodoo. Now the practice of human sacrifices wasn't even banned in voodoo until 1990.
--- End quote ---
what sort of device is this? you are completely trying to distract attention from the root issue. black people were greatly wronged by slavery and colonialism.
now, for your side issue: i am unfamiliar with voodoo. i'm not prepared to condemn it. i'm not comfortable with the idea of human sacrifice, i'd like to look into the practice; understand the theory and motivation. understand how effective the practices are. i'll do some research, i'll get back to you on this. my predisposition is against human sacrifice, but i'm not familiar with voodoo or the role human sacrifice within it.
for the record, are you saying that voodoo is ineffective?
--- Quote ---So for all of these years black people have been screaming hatred towards the way the west has wronged them and yet don't give a damn when blacks are being murdered in their tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands even by a religion, its bewildering.
--- End quote ---
i'm sure most blacks would be outraged by both. it's not either or. personally, i'm going to look into voodoo before i express any outrage.
--- Quote ---Finally don't you see most white people certainly in this area I live are struggling to get by after all the bills are paid, certainly my family are and yet there is still this bullshit propaganda about whitey having this and whitey having that
--- End quote ---
western nations are rich, and too many of them don't take proper care of their citizens. the u.s. is one of the worst. we can talk about the psychology of people that support governments that do nothing for them. we can also talk about the effects these people and governments in their quest for wealth, power and world domination have had on people's across the globe.
let's keep in mind that struggling to pay your mortgage or rent or car payment is nowhere near as bad as struggling to feed your family. you can't compare struggling in the west to the struggles of the poor in third world country. struggling and sufferage that has been greatly exacerbated by the influence of the west and western ideas of development and societal structure.
--- Quote ---at the end of the day and as you yourself have acknowledged its the government who profit and prosper.
--- End quote ---
many of the people also prosper. at a minimum the wealthy prosper. it's only the poor that aren't prospering. the standard of living in the west is far greater than these third world countries.
--- Quote ---Yet still I have to feel apologetic and guilty about the actions of white people, what the hell?
--- End quote ---
noone is telling you to feel guilty. you can accept that you prosper from oppression and slavery, as do i; and share in the condemnation of the past. or you can deny it and look for excuses as you seem to be doing. noone is blaming you directly, but if you deny the crimes and make up excuses you become part of the problem.
--- Quote ---this countries people were serfs until the magna carta was introduced which gave us the bare minimum of human rights, so its entirely feasible that my ancestors had no part in slavery. They were the ones who were slaves, in this country.
--- End quote ---
the subtle differences are that while you may be disadvantaged because of crimes of the past, you largely have opportunities to acheive great heights and overcome.
blacks in america while at a disadvantaged position, also have opportunities to succeed and many do. not an even playing field even today, but opportunities abound nonetheless.
in zimbabwe where 1% controls 70% of the arable lands in an agricultural based economy, there is little room to right wrongs and few opportunities.
virtuoso:
1)Yes indeed they were colonisers so were the zulus, you will find that zimbabwe is divided along these tribal lines
2) Secondly your point about the control of the land is completely inaccurate since those are old figures, the whites have been ethnically cleansed from zimbabwe. Now instead the land has been seized and given to thugs and government officials.
3) As I keep mentioning if you insist that white people have no right to that land then nor do most black most people there after all both parties invaded zimbabwe around the same time. They seized control by force Mugabe is a dictator, the army thinks nothing about massacring thousands of people like they did in the 80's.
4) I wasn't mentioning voodoo as a deliberate side issue it just came into my thoughts as i was thinking about the idea of being wronged. I am just addressing a much broader point and it is one which came to my mind as I listened to a Nas song, painting Africa as this place of Utopia which those "white devils" destroyed is just such a twisted and distorted notion. However human sacrificing is true and feel free to research it. It was a female witchdoctor who was talking candidly about voodooism and she was the one who said human sacrifice wasnt banned until 1990. I don't know what you mean when you ask do i think its ineffective, i think its bizarre and sick.
5) You know what? parts of Ireland are so poverty stricken that its literally difficult to put any food on the table. Secondly on that same issue England is a place of contradiction the wealth is centred in certain areas. However any sweeping generalisation is completely wrong. I have budgeted before for renting a place lets say a place called Manchester if the salary was at a lowish level. I would be in permanent debt every month. It hardly fits snugly into this idea of wealth.
6) Yes I agree with you some people have prospered from the actions, the rich only get richer. It's about keeping people in their place, the idea of a hierarchy of power and influence which only the minority can occupy.
7) I have never denied the past crimes and if you had read my posts properly you would see I had emphasised that point to. Today we have white slavery rings, black slavery rings. Slavery is disgusting, so don't start with your "part of the problem" rhetoric what am I saying as you know is that the issue should be completely honest. I reiterate most white people would think you were lying if they were told that white people have been slaved in north africa. Personally I am outraged by this systematic and unwavering process to withhold these facts from people.
Finally in reply to your last point, the government officials now control that land, Zimbabwe has been crippled as a result of what they have done by seizing the land because of the lack of crops growing and going back to what you said about being part of the problem. Well you are part of the problem if you condone the ethnic cleansing and murdering of white families in Zimbabwe. I would sure hope that is not what you are doing but in the language you are using that is what could be read into your comments.
Shallow:
My only issue is when North American blacks equate their problems with that of the impoverished people in the 3rd world. I actually know a guy that told me it's just as hard to be a black man in Canada as it is to be a child sex slave in the Philippines. I was in such amazement when I heard this I had to ask him if he was joking 8 times.
No one is denying that the rich white west is a key factor in the poverty of the 3rd world. But the problem for a lot of whites in the west is that they are taught to feel like they are responsible for it. The truth is the vast majority of them are just pawns that couldn't do anything to stop it, and had very little if anything at all to do with it ever. The basic thought that the difference between a poor white man and a rich white man in the USA 200 years ago was how many slaves they had is absolutely ridiculous, and it's a myth that many, black and white, don't seem to eager to expose. In the United States the poverty rate of blacks may double that of whites, but 80% of blacks are above the poverty line, and there are triple the number of poor whites than poor blacks, and more than double more poor whites than poor blacks and latinos combined. There may not be a level playing field but I know too many that have this idea that the highest blacks are still lower than the lowest whites when it comes to opportunity, and that's another myth. This myth leads to a mentality held be many blacks and whites and it has a negative affect on both. Of course as Nibs mentioned that negative affect is nothing next to the problems of the third world and maybe if people here remembered that there wouldn't be as much white suburban suicide or black ghetto homicide. It's funny because such a small portion of each group is affected by either.
nibs:
i wouldn't compare normal migrations and population expansions to colonisers.
zimbabwe was not an established country with boundaries until the colonisers invaded and enforced boundaries. boundaries that were sustainable from the outside pressures and resistance.
the old figures are illustrative of the problem mugabe was attempting to solve, when they began seizing land. the problem is that the land seizing was not done in a competent manner, and the farms have not remained operational. it was not a well executed plan. it seems as if there was no legitimate plan on how to actually divide the land up effectively and keep the farms running. to date it has been a failed plan. i am not in favor of ethnic cleansing, for the record. i do think the government has the right to seize lands and redistribute them the address past wrongs. this should be done in a competent manner, imho.
the west is rich. the rich get richer, but the poor are also richer than the poor across the world. additionally the poor have access to wealth and often become "the rich". there are people behind the government and corporations, these people are not anonymous; and there is accessibility to the wealth that is generated. having to budget to pay your rent isn't a great burden. you have a place to live, you have food to eat and a job. when your concern is about your personal luxuries and convenience, and not about eating and finding shelter \w decent sanitation...that's a pretty good starting point.
you continue to emphasize this white slavery in north africa. where are the lasting effects? how did that set back europe? this is the difference between the african slave trade and the colonisation of africa, and the slavery that existed in africa and the middle east. people are still focused on the african slave trade because the repercussions persist. slavery of whites in africa is nothing more than a historical footnote. in contrast, african nation face an array of issues today stemming from the results of colonisation and the slave trade
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