Lifestyle > Train of Thought
do the muslims on this board...
coola:
^ i've been saying from the longest of times... the qu'ran does not state things in black and white. it does not call a spade a spade, if it did, then there wouldnt be such debate over womens rights.
the moral teachings in the new testament are clear, and do not offer mis-understanding. it is plain and clear what is right and wrong.
the bible is actually very strict in it's teachings aswell, one example is; if you are married, and you look around at other women erotically, remove the eye you look at them with, if you steal, remove the hand you steal with. it is plain and clear.
what i will never understand, is the whole dividing up assets stuff in case of death. there is nothing about dividing assets up in the bible, because dividing up assets is not important, what do you think assets mean to God ? everybody knows you cant take possessions to the afterlife. what is the point in putting such things in a book supposedly of the word of god ? they could have just made that an arabic law or whatever... but including it in a 'holy' document ?
nibs:
--- Quote from: Chief on April 10, 2006, 11:47:13 PM ---^ i've been saying from the longest of times... the qu'ran does not state things in black and white. it does not call a spade a spade, if it did, then there wouldnt be such debate over womens rights.
--- End quote ---
the qu'ran states things in black & white, the debate is whether the qu'ran should be followed to the letter of the law or in the spirit of the law.
for example, if you look at sura 24:31:
And say to the believing women that they restrain their looks and guard their private parts, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment save to their husbands, or to their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or women who are their companions, or those that their right hands possess, or such of male attendants as have no desire for women, or young children who have not yet attained knowledge of the hidden parts of women. And that they strike not their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may become known. And turn ye to ALLAH all together, O believers, that you may prosper.
the sher ali translation makes direct reference to the head covering which i understand is mentioned in the original arabic. this is why in the stricter islamic states women wear the burqa's or atleast the hajib.
if you look at a different translation (khalifah)
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.*
here he simply tries to capture the spirit of the message which is that women should dress modestly.
--- Quote ---the bible is actually very strict in it's teachings aswell, one example is; if you are married, and you look around at other women erotically, remove the eye you look at them with, if you steal, remove the hand you steal with. it is plain and clear.
--- End quote ---
the letter of the law in the qu'ran is similarly strict (cutting the hand of the thief, beating an adulterer and adulteress)
The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.*
The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
the qu'ran is specific.
--- Quote ---what i will never understand, is the whole dividing up assets stuff in case of death. there is nothing about dividing assets up in the bible, because dividing up assets is not important, what do you think assets mean to God ? everybody knows you cant take possessions to the afterlife. what is the point in putting such things in a book supposedly of the word of god ? they could have just made that an arabic law or whatever... but including it in a 'holy' document ?
--- End quote ---
god advising how to life. appreciate this life, and prepare for the next.
people debate whether a daughter could now get equal share in an inheritence, as women now have greater roles in terms of their careers and rely less on their husbands; marriages aren't arranged...etc. people debate whether the qu'ran should be followed to the letter of the law, or the spirit which was about fairness and equity. if a daughter were going to have a husband to take care of her, while a son a family he would be obligated to take care of, the proportions in the qu'ran address that well. in a different time, where the roles of women and men differ, does it make sense to adhere simply to the spirit of fairness.
sura 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.
that is really the key to islam. all the other directions and instructions are things that are better for you to do. things that prepare the right frame of mind and right disposition.
Shallow:
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---i am not trying to convert you. i respond simply to indicate that where you suggest there are questions there are actually answers. i respond for completeness sake. for the record, i have no problem at all with you being a christian. i don't believe that people can be told what to do, people seek and they find. i am not telling you to convert, i am illustrating the misconceptions in your concerns.
--- End quote ---
I don't think you are trying to convert me. I just know you can't answer questions that can't be answered any anyone. I choose to belive this and you choose to believe that.
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---my realm is infinite. you have made statements that were clear misconceptions and those were addressable.
i present cold hard facts.
--- End quote ---
Your realm is infinite? You sound like Infinite maybe, but your realm is not infinite. You cannot answer all of life's questions, and that's what I meant when I said outside of your realm.
It may be a fact that the Quran says things but that doesn't make the thing the Quran says are facts. The very existence of God is not a fact. You can belive the Quran has never been changed but you can't prove it.
"god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons."
I never implied that any of this is true, but I can't prove any of this isn't. I'm not God, and have never met God, and can't begin to understand what he is capable of being and doing.
"many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner. you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not."
Why did I portray it as such. What Jesus is or was before he entered the body of the baby born to Mary is not clearly explain. The Gospel of John states that it was the word of God that entered the body, and that the word came from God and was God at the same time. What that means exactly is anybody's guess and can be interpreted in different ways. It makes enough sense to me for me to believe it and I do.
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---the bible is presented as a history and the actual accuracy of that history is debated; the meaning largely has to be inferred. the new testament suffers slightly less from this the old. the quran is presented as instructions with historical references. these are the facts.
--- End quote ---
I could care less about the Old Testmament. I believe in the Gospel, which means the Good Word of Jesus Christ which is the Good Word of God as well, as far as my beliefs go. I have very philosophical views of where that Good Word can come from, and I don't thinkit has to come from reading the 4 scriptures in the Bible.
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---you can structure your marriage however your wish. you could cede all the power to your wife. the point is not to create a strict law; the point is to create a mode of thinking. in countless scriptures throughout the quran there will be instruction and then a fallback position, and possibly another fallback position. it provides a structure, it provides a mode of thinking. the quran states directly "there is no obligation in religion". if you want to cede authority to your wife 50/50 or 0/100 this is not some sort inherent sin on it's own. it would depend on your own rationale. ofcourse being the man it is your decision whether or not to cede the authority, but it is something that you could do.
--- End quote ---
It's not about whether I could if I wanted to but whether she could if she wanted to and the type of God I want to believe in. I don't agree with that and that's just how I feel.
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---you have this idea about islam that in many ways is misguided. the quran is not incompatible with the sorts of notions you put forward. there is actually alot of debate in the muslim world about the issue of women's rights and shari'a law for example. in iran the younger generations have been pushing towards more liberal interpretations of shari'a law. in palestine there had been some backlash when hamas took over as to whether hamas would try to impose a more strict form of shari'a law and force women to wear hijabs...there are liberal muslims, there are feminist muslims...etc. your criticisms here are misguided. while the quran is accepted as the word of god, some of the quran is actually contextual, making direct references to situations that were immediately relevant at the time. this is also allows for some of the malleability.
--- End quote ---
You have made it very clear that the quote I presented stands true and places the male above the female, even if ony slightly, so how is that a misconception on my part?
--- Quote from: nibs on April 10, 2006, 09:44:09 PM ---i maintain that religion has more to offer than just morality. religion also tries to impart wisdom, knowledge and truth. this is far different than simple morality.
i
--- End quote ---
It's not about being just about morality, it's about me being able to easily more see what it moral and what is immoral, rather than what is wise and what is unwise. Wisdom is more complicated than morality as far as I'm concerned, and wisdom, great wisdom, comes from many non-religious places. Now I don't know whether that means that because the source wasn't religious that the wisdom isn't part of religion, but I'm not pretending to know. Maybe wisdom is like morality (my version of morality anyway), in that it is from God and put inside all of us and becomes apparent to some before it does for others. I don't know. I don't know why we're here, or where exactly we are going, but I believe that if I live a certain way that those answers will be shown to me one day, and until then I will try my best to live a good life and pay the highest tribute to God the best way I feel I can; by trying to get others to live a good life (good as in a life filled with morality, logic, and practicality, which in turn may be the epitome of what is wise). I will not reject any wisdom, knowledge or truth that comes my way, whether it agrees with it or not, and decide for myself if I think it is wise, smart, or true.
King Tech Quadafi:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 10, 2006, 02:51:49 PM ---. I strongly believe that a woman lead household, ;where the woman can have the final say
--- End quote ---
:-\
nibs:
--- Quote from: Shallow on April 11, 2006, 07:14:18 PM ---I don't think you are trying to convert me. I just know you can't answer questions that can't be answered any anyone. I choose to belive this and you choose to believe that.
--- End quote ---
i believe we are in agreement. i'm certain that there are people who know these answers; and i am also certain that it is possible to find the answers to life's greatest question if one seeks in the right sources. the key is that this sort of realization happens at the individual level and is something that cannot be told or directed. the knowledge that you speak of is not some sort of intellectual concept to be understood, but a state of mind, a state of understanding to be realized.
in many ways various religions have tried to capture both the descriptions of these realizations; and also direction to finding and verifying these answers on one's own.
"god is not a man, god does not have semen, god does not have sons in the sense that man has sons."
--- Quote ---I never implied that any of this is true, but I can't prove any of this isn't. I'm not God, and have never met God, and can't begin to understand what he is capable of being and doing.
--- End quote ---
the bible does not claim that god is a man with semen. the bible clearly states that mary knew no man. the debate over whether or not jesus is god's son is largely a semantic debate over the usage of the word "son". neither the bible nor the quran suggest that mary was impregnated by a man. there is no debate in the qu'ran and bible as to the nature of the conception of jesus. it's a semantic argument over the usage of words.
"many people have interpretted the relationship of jesus and god, and jesus words in a far different manner. you portray this as an all or nothing issue when it's not."
--- Quote ---Why did I portray it as such. What Jesus is or was before he entered the body of the baby born to Mary is not clearly explain. The Gospel of John states that it was the word of God that entered the body, and that the word came from God and was God at the same time. What that means exactly is anybody's guess and can be interpreted in different ways. It makes enough sense to me for me to believe it and I do.
--- End quote ---
the one idea that i want to convey here is that the qu'ran and the bible do not disagree to the nature of jesus at all. the qu'ran also refers to jesus as "the word of god":
sura 4:171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
the only disagreement that exists is the notion that jesus is equal to god and should also be worshipped. the notion of the trinity. the qu'ran completely supports the divine nature of jesus in all ways.
when people suggest that the interpretation of christ in the qu'ran is radically different from ideas held by some christians...this is wrong, and not bore out by studying the text to the quran.
--- Quote ---It's not about whether I could if I wanted to but whether she could if she wanted to and the type of God I want to believe in. I don't agree with that and that's just how I feel.
--- End quote ---
this is the root of our current disagreement. the old testament, the qu'ran...etc. there is this idea that god's prophets, and religions in general often tell people what they need to hear for their circumstance. the qu'ran directly has this idea of different people getting prophets and messengers at different times depending on their circumstances...if you look at the history of how the qu'ran was revealed (which was in stages over time) one theme has been that various suras were revealed to the prophet muhammad to address and resolve issues and concerns that were going on at the time. there are verses in sura's that deal directly with people interacting with the prophet and his wives...etc. this is why the qu'ran does not consider it an inconsistency that the various prophets throughout history have said different things. it isn't an issue of god changing his mind; this is not the nature of god. it is an issue of prophets providing divinely inspired guidance to the people.
the basic idea that i think you are missing is this. the qu'ran isn't about dictating the terms of your marriage; however the qu'ran does provide guidance about the structure of marriages at that time, and that advice is still heeded today.
in modern times; when marriages are not arranged by parents, the matter in which you structure your marriage would be less influenced by that guidance and more dictated by your own wishes; so it's a moot issue.
you've suggested that muslims believe in "the sort of god" that wishes to see women dominated and subservient.
god does not wish in this sort of whimsical manner. what the qu'ran states is that god wishes for his creations to be loving towards each other and to worship him.
everything else is basically advice that people would be better for heeding, and warnings that people should be wary of ignoring; because the world is not perfect, and people do not abide by god's will.
what i am challenging is your suggestion of the qu'ran's portrayal of god, when across the muslim world's there are numerous examples of the nature of god being appreciated in a vastly different manner than what you suggest.
i heard a sufi shaykh speak and he characterized the judiasm/christianity/islam relationship thusly:
abraham/moses were about living by the law
jesus was about looking towards the afterlife
muhammad was about balancing the preparation for the spiritual afterlife with appreciating the physical world and existence as well.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version