Lifestyle > Train of Thought
95% Of The Time School Is Unnecessary
AndrE16686:
--- Quote from: Sikotic: STILL Tha Champ on August 29, 2006, 01:18:23 AM ---Very true. Especially the higher you go in education. You realize how much of it is beaurocratic BS.
--- End quote ---
yeah know whatchu mean, 3 years into my degree now and i find all you need is yourself and a book, tutorials and lectures just turn into nap times...
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 09:49:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Hajj Abdul-Infinite...BANNED FOR SPEAKING TRUTH! on August 29, 2006, 06:09:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 02:30:18 PM ---
Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.
--- End quote ---
Read my opening thread again man. I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".
And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing. So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor. But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.
--- End quote ---
Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.
As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.
Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?
--- End quote ---
Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written. I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.
As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for. So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.
J Bananas:
--- Quote from: Hajj Abdul-Infinite...BANNED FOR SPEAKING TRUTH! on August 29, 2006, 11:16:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 09:49:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Hajj Abdul-Infinite...BANNED FOR SPEAKING TRUTH! on August 29, 2006, 06:09:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 02:30:18 PM ---
Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.
--- End quote ---
Read my opening thread again man. I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".
And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing. So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor. But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.
--- End quote ---
Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.
As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.
Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?
--- End quote ---
Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written. I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.
As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for. So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.
--- End quote ---
bryan these are almost cult like tactics you're using during the debate club, what the fuck is wrong with you?
Shallow:
--- Quote from: Hajj Abdul-Infinite...BANNED FOR SPEAKING TRUTH! on August 29, 2006, 11:16:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 09:49:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Hajj Abdul-Infinite...BANNED FOR SPEAKING TRUTH! on August 29, 2006, 06:09:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on August 29, 2006, 02:30:18 PM ---
Infinite; how far do you think your knowledge and uderstand of Islam has come since learning from various Imams, as opposed from just reading yourself. Am organized governemt regulated system may not be perfect but I've yet to see a better way to teach the masses.
--- End quote ---
Read my opening thread again man. I didn't say everything had to be independant study, read it again, I said "or ask someone who knows".
And as far school and "teaching the masses", let's say 24 people all want to learn the same thing. So you would think if they all chipped in and paid the teacher to teach them it would be less money then if you hired an individual private tutor. But even at the community colleges people are paying $500 dollars for classes, you could get your own tutor and get 1 on 1 attention for way cheaper than that; and the learning would be much more effective.
--- End quote ---
Still that someone who knows has to have some sort of credentials for you to take him seriously or not question him (or her) with every lesson. If an Imam tells you what the Quran says on this matter or that matter and quotes the verse you're less likely to run straight to the book shelf and verify it. If CWalker gives you the exact same information you're checking up on it right away. We don't have time to question every little thing. That doesn't mean we have to follow it blindly or refuse to believe a teacher is a wrong but a matter of trust is essential to learn faster.
As for College classes it still takes time and effort to organize hundreds of people that would be in a lecture hall and get them to come together and pay the teacher (who would need ceredentials) and decide meeting places and times and what other things they may want to learn. It's simply impracticle. I challenge to you try it with out going through the organized realm of education. See if you can get 100 people that all want to be Engineers and need to learn Integral Calculus, then find someone with out University credentials to teach that to them and set up a pay system and a meeting time and place for the classes. See if it's possible to teach something like that and round up the students by going outside of the system. It's a rhetorical challenge because you could never get 100 people to agree to learn from an uncertified Calculus teacher, you'd have to start small and make sure the few in the beginning classes walk away with more knowledge than they would have if they took it at a school, and then you'd need testimonies to convince others. You'd have to book places to have the meetings and make sure everyone is getting texts and everyone is paying. You'd have to quit work because the endeavor would take up all your time and to make that worth your time you'd have to justify it by generating money for yourself, and then you'd realize that each student would probably have to shell out about 500 a piece anyway just to cover the teacher, you, and the expenses. 30 meetings at about 200 dollars a rental for a room that will hold 100 people will come out to 6,000. Let's say the whole course goes 15 weeks to give kids to to learn and study the info and that means a quarter year is gone for the teacher which will need at least a third of an average salary to keep around which will be atleast 12,000 dollars and an extra 5,000 for a TA which may be needed if the class is that large. You'd have to make up the money you'd lose from not working which is another 10,000 atleast and texts etc, which may be another 3 to 4 thousand. So a total would come to just under 40,000 to run this class and I'm being generous. That's 400 a student. 300 if you do it all for free. It simply won't work because either way the kids aren't saving much and they don't have access to all the research facilities a University would give them like computer labs, libraries, and senior level students with experience. Let's not even get into trying to find a skilled Calculus teacher who didn't go to University.
Organized forms of anything need to exist for something to strive. Where would Islam be with out the Mosques?
--- End quote ---
Again I request that you re-read what I have previously written. I said that even a private tutor is cheaper than paying for college classes; you didn't read that part, so you went on and on about how long it would take to gather up a class full of students.
As for using my Islamic studies as any kind of an example, that's really a waste of time, because I've never gone to any Islamic course, and never paid for any Islamic teaching, and yet I know more about Islamic studies then any of the subjects I spent years going to school for. So if you want to use Islam as an example, your only proving my own argument and destroying your own.
--- End quote ---
You're not seeing my point. I'm talking about a massive amount of students. There are tens of thousands of kids that need to learn something like Integral Calculus and there aren't tens of thousands credible tutors, much less ones with out degrees. You are thinking in individually. YOU could learn Calculus by hiring a tutor. YOU could learn to be a better doctor by 4 years of living with, working with, and studying a doctor rather than 8 years of pre-med and med school. Society could not function like that. Order needs to be set up for the best possible results. I could learn more about Islam by independant study than a large percentage of Muslims but I understand that with out the organizations of the mosques that Islam simply would not reach and maintain the numbers it has reached and maintained over the years. If there never were mosques and Islam relied solely on the individuals desire to pursue knowledge of Islam it would be a religion that consists of only a fraction of the people it has now. The same goes for the Church or the Synagogue.
Don Seer:
he's also missing a point... just because you read something in a book 1) doesn not make it right (they can have mistakes) and 2) tests + exams exist to correct you.. people do mislearn things and misunderstand the things they learn
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