Phil said Kobe is a better player with the ball than Michael

[Citizen-Y]

Kobe will never be regarded as a better player than Jordan until he wins titles when he is the man on his team.  He will always have Shaq's shadows over those three rings.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Antonio, I'm under the impression that you've heard more about Jordan than you've actually seen him play. Dude is considered the GOAT right now, no question about it (though I still say Magic was a better overall player, but that's a whole nother story). But you can't forget that the NBA treated Jordan back then like they're doing Wade now, it was almost like looking at him the wrong way was a foul, pretty much the opposite of the current Kobe treatment.

C'mon, let's be real! Jordan wasn't treathed any better than Magic, Bird, Drexler, Kareem, Robinson, ecc.. The NBA has always protected his superstars. It's just Kobe who gets no love from the refs after that damn rape case! Duncan, James, Wade, Nash.. they are all "protected" by the refs too. Kobe is just the only one who gets no calls. You got a point here. But still.. it's not enought, man, to underrated what Jordan did as a player even in his early days. Just remember the Bulls were a shitty team like the Cavs before LeBron. The only difference is that Jordan led them to the Play Offs since his first year in the league, never missing them. He was no joke. And talking about Jordan having no love, he had "problems" too. I got the tape of his first All-Star Game (obviously he was a starter, as a rookie. LOL), and Isiah Thomas and his Eastern Conference teammates litterally refused to pass him the ball because they thought fans didn't have to give a rookie like him such a privilege. Plus in his first 2-3 seasons, while the fans loved him, NBA players hated on him and thought he was just.. you know.. overhyped by the media. Something we say now about LeBron James. Only difference is that Jordan took only 4 seasons to win the MVP award (and he got robbed in his 3rd), a well deserved uncontested one, to shut the haters down. No fucking joke. OK, he wasn't hated by the refs like Kobe is now, but c'mon..

Jordan also wasn't exactly contending for championships in the beginning of his career, so if all you got is stats (sort of like a LeBron gets the stats nowadays) and word of mouth up in Italy then you wont see the whole picture...

Like i said he was no LeBron for the simple fact that he started his career by carring the (shitty) Bulls to the Play Offs from his rookie year. Ok, the Bulls always got eliminated by the Celtics (we're talking about arguably the best Celtics ever), but still he made that infamous 63-points performance against Bird & co., in his second year. If it wasn't for the Celtics.... Anyway he led the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals in his 5th year (and in his 6th. And he won the NBA title in his 7th, 8th, 9th..). No joke.

people talk about Jordan like he was a God, like he couldn't miss a shot and was the flawless player, but anyone who's actually watched him play in his days know that isn't exactly the whole truth...Yes, the GOAT right now, but Kobe was a champion when Jordan was still being regarded as a selfish player and awful teammate...Stats don't tell you everything, if that were the case, then even LeBron>Kobe, which we all know is not true...Why do you think Jordan had better stats in the first half of his career, but was easily considered the better player in the second half of his career when his stats went down. It's kinda like Kobe now compared to last year. Kobe is maturing, at an even younger age than Jordan did...

Kobe is about 28. By that time, Jordan already had an NBA title won and was running for his 2nd and 3rd, man. Only difference is that the Bulls were built around him, and not around "Shaq". Don't get me wrong here, i'm not the type of guy who will say "Shaq won it", or "Kobe won it because of Shaq". Fuck that. Kobe had a fundamental role in the 3peat, sometimes even stronger than Shaq's one. But that one was Shaq's team. This one is Kobe's team. It's different. Even harder if you ask me (i mean it's easier to win a title with a dominant C than with a dominant SG). Kobe still gotta prove he can win a title by himself (the team built around him). Probably he will. Maybe he won't. We don't know. He has all the tools to do it tho. And i'm optimistic he will, maybe even this year. But you can't compare a done deal with a promise, you know what i mean?

That's why I'm saying, anyone who says Kobe doesn't have the chance to surpass Jordan is straight up hating, considering Kobe is just entering his prime years. Think of how lucky we are to have 10 more years of this guy on our team, and he's just now getting to his best. It's actually scary! So just remember, I'm not saying Jordan isn't the GOAT right now, but I am saying that there is a chance he will not always be the GOAT, not in everyones eyes at least...PeACe

Man but i ain't arguing about that. Kobe is a legend already at 28, and now it's nothing but money time. Time to work on his legacy and to win a couple of titles by himself.

Antonio, I've watched Jordan play up close in his prime, believe me when I say that I know this dude was a legend amongst legends, you're not explaining anything to me there. But I'm pretty shocked that you know nothing of the Jordan ref treatment though. It wasn't "like Magic and Bird", everyone knows this, Jordan literally would get the foul called in his favor on almost every play, the NBA invested a lot in him to be their poster child, he came in an era when marketing was taking off and the NBA backed him 100%. I'm surprised you don't know about this and compare his preferential treatment to Magic's...LOL. It's a mind-boggling comparison by you. There was once a picture session for 'Greats of the Game' with Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan. Magic told Larry not to stand too close to Michael or they might call a foul. In front of reporters and television viewers, that was a classic comment by Magic. Think Dwyane Wade, but 100 times better. Anyways, the point I was making is that Kobe has accomplished more by the age of 28 than Jordan has. he matured earlier and tweaked his game for his teammates at a much earlier age, going against the grain too, not like Jordan who was placed in the perfect situation with the whole league backing him...But the main point in all of this is that despite coming into the league in two different situations, one where Jordan got all the love in the world while Kobe got all the hate, Kobe STILL made a name for himself as the only player who doesn't get laughed at when compared to Jordan, and since he's JUST NOW approaching his best years, it's more than likely that he will leave the NBA as the greatest player, even greater than Magic I'd say...Again, this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who will hear stories about Jordan will be made to believe that he was a God, because that's how many saw him and were made to see him...It'll never be the same for Kobe, despite having many of the same abilities and even surpassing some of Jordan's abilities in some cases...All I really want, though, is people to UNDERSTAND that Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan and the best chance we currently have to see a legend become THE legend...And in my mind, it's undeniable...PeACe

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Damn, I still can't believe that you never knew of the Michael Jordan treatment, and even compared it to Magic and Bird...

The perception about the Bulls' preferential treatment because of Jordan is based in reality -- even Paxson acknowledged that as he was complaining about Nowitzki's 19-free throw night. In 1998, Jordan pushed Bryon Russell to the floor before making a championship-winning shot against Utah. In 1997, Jordan bumped Mookie Blaylock out of bounds to force an Atlanta turnover and secure a Chicago playoff win. In 1995, Jordan held the arm of the Hornets' Hersey Hawkins -- and admitted it -- to prevent Hawkins from making a winning layup that would have sent the Bulls-Hornets playoff series to a Game 5 in Charlotte.

As Hawkins explained, "It's Michael Jordan, and I'm Hersey Hawkins."

More than any other player, Jordan solidified the theory that star players get calls. But things have changed. Now, Jordan is retired, and referees are being held to a different standard.

http://www.sportingnews.com/exclusives/20050314/607149.html

[Antonio_]

Antonio, I've watched Jordan play up close in his prime, believe me when I say that I know this dude was a legend amongst legends, you're not explaining anything to me there. But I'm pretty shocked that you know nothing of the Jordan ref treatment though. It wasn't "like Magic and Bird", everyone knows this, Jordan literally would get the foul called in his favor on almost every play, the NBA invested a lot in him to be their poster child, he came in an era when marketing was taking off and the NBA backed him 100%. I'm surprised you don't know about this and compare his preferential treatment to Magic's...LOL. It's a mind-boggling comparison by you. There was once a picture session for 'Greats of the Game' with Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan. Magic told Larry not to stand too close to Michael or they might call a foul. In front of reporters and television viewers, that was a classic comment by Magic. Think Dwyane Wade, but 100 times better.

My point was simply that Jordan was protected the same way superstars are protected. Yes, maybe in his case he was protected more than it should have been (i've heard about these stories too). And yes, obviously Jordan was an icon to the NBA. But i understand the NBA tho. I mean basketball became so popular in the whole world because of Jordan, he was an ambassador. What i don't get, and i agree with you on this, is why Kobe is HATED so much. And i agree that he had to struggle in the NBA since his very first day. He's a pioneer, like a said. The point is that i don't find it strange what the NBA did to protected Jordan: i find it strange what they're doing to shut Kobe (let me correct myself: to try to shut Kobe) down. The fact that they cant do it is something that makes Kobe even more a legend in my eyes.

Anyways, the point I was making is that Kobe has accomplished more by the age of 28 than Jordan has. he matured earlier and tweaked his game for his teammates at a much earlier age, going against the grain too, not like Jordan who was placed in the perfect situation with the whole league backing him...But the main point in all of this is that despite coming into the league in two different situations, one where Jordan got all the love in the world while Kobe got all the hate, Kobe STILL made a name for himself as the only player who doesn't get laughed at when compared to Jordan, and since he's JUST NOW approaching his best years, it's more than likely that he will leave the NBA as the greatest player, even greater than Magic I'd say...Again, this is all a matter of opinion, and anyone who will hear stories about Jordan will be made to believe that he was a God, because that's how many saw him and were made to see him...It'll never be the same for Kobe, despite having many of the same abilities and even surpassing some of Jordan's abilities in some cases...All I really want, though, is people to UNDERSTAND that Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan and the best chance we currently have to see a legend become THE legend...And in my mind, it's undeniable...PeACe

I ain't denying it, man. I just said that AT THE MOMENT Jordan > Kobe. Simple as that. I don't know the future.

[Antonio_]

Damn, I still can't believe that you never knew of the Michael Jordan treatment, and even compared it to Magic and Bird...

The perception about the Bulls' preferential treatment because of Jordan is based in reality -- even Paxson acknowledged that as he was complaining about Nowitzki's 19-free throw night. In 1998, Jordan pushed Bryon Russell to the floor before making a championship-winning shot against Utah. In 1997, Jordan bumped Mookie Blaylock out of bounds to force an Atlanta turnover and secure a Chicago playoff win. In 1995, Jordan held the arm of the Hornets' Hersey Hawkins -- and admitted it -- to prevent Hawkins from making a winning layup that would have sent the Bulls-Hornets playoff series to a Game 5 in Charlotte.

As Hawkins explained, "It's Michael Jordan, and I'm Hersey Hawkins."

Exactly. Man i've seen all the things written here at 4 am, in front of my tv. I remember them very well. Can't deny them. The difference between Kobe and Jordan is that Jordan had 4-5 NBA titles and MVP titles already achieved by himself, at that time. While Kobe still has to win one all by himself to probably change the idea of the common people (and refs) about himself and to start to get some love. That said, even if Jordan was treated better by the refs, it still doesn't change a thing about him being the best SG i've ever seen. He was no Wade, man.

More than any other player, Jordan solidified the theory that star players get calls. But things have changed. Now, Jordan is retired, and referees are being held to a different standard.

http://www.sportingnews.com/exclusives/20050314/607149.html[/i]

Different standard?? LOL.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

4-5 titles? Jordan didn't even win his first title at the age Kobe is now!

I agree with most of what you're saying, but one thing is that the Jordan treatment was not comparable to any superstar treatment EVER, not even Dwyane Wade...In one sense, we're the luckiest fans in the world, man. We got the best player in the game and one of the greatest ever leading our young team and we have about 10 years of watching him to see whether or not he is the one. On the other hand, our fans are not so lucky in the sense that the Lakers/Kobe don't get the same ref treatment the Bulls/Jordan were getting in the early 90s. nowadays, that treatment is going in the direction of the younger superstars of the league (Wade, LeBron, etc.). Just imagine how much greater Kobe could come off  to everyone if the league was backing him and the media had nothing against him, this is why Jordan had those MVPs and Kobe will probably never win 1...Imagine what it would be like if he got to the line every time he took it to the basket, if he got those extra trips that Jordan always did...It would be much easier to see what I was saying if that were the case...Unfortunately, the league makes it a little harder for us to compare certain players, they make it so that D-Wade seems comparable to Kobe, so basketball heads like me and you have to look into it to see the whole picture...Think about that and think about how lucky you are every time you get a chance to catch a Laker game and watch history happening...Think about the endless possibilites and think about how much was still ahead of Jordan at the age of 28...PeACe

[wcsoldier]

Well; I think it's an interesting talk because of the fact people has difficulties to think about Jordan skills regardless all the media thing, the legend ect... both Antonio and Nik brought valid arguments... I tend to agree with Antonio, Kobe has (will ) to prove he can win being the main player on the team (people who said Shaq won these titles are moron, Kobe needed Shaq and Shaq needed Kobe but like Antonio said it's more easy to win with a dominant C...). I don't think Kobe can achieve what Jordan awards wise but like Nik said it doesn't mean who will be the best skills wise, due to the subjectivity of the medias.. when it comes to offensive games , if you watch games on a regular basis you know Kobe has a more versatile game than MJ.. I mean MJ never had the range Kobe has.. the main difference ( it changed a lot this year though ) is MJ made better choices when it comes to go to the hoop when his jumper was off, when Kobe forced long shots (but once again he barely had calls so...) Defensive wise they're both great but the main difference is MJ D was better on no names than Kobe one, who takes D as challenges to lock great scorers up and tend to be more relax on no-names BUT let's not forget MJ had Pippen who was the best D on the perimeter for years imo... Back on general topic if Kobe wins 2 or 3 titles in the upcoming years he will be on Jordan level regardless the individual awards... I jus think people have to make their own opinion and not repeat what the medias say all the time.. you must have a deeper look on the comparaison... 

[Antonio_]

4-5 titles? Jordan didn't even win his first title at the age Kobe is now!

Man i was talking about the offensive foul on Russell (1998), the foul on Mookie (1997) etc.. About the things written in the article. Anyway Michael Jordan won his first NBA title at the age of 28. Kobe has now 10379 days of life (easy to calculate, lol. Don't look at me as an UFO!). Jordan won his first title after 10329 days of life. So tecnically you're wrong (not that it changes a damn thing, but..).

I agree with most of what you're saying, but one thing is that the Jordan treatment was not comparable to any superstar treatment EVER, not even Dwyane Wade...In one sense, we're the luckiest fans in the world, man. We got the best player in the game and one of the greatest ever leading our young team and we have about 10 years of watching him to see whether or not he is the one. On the other hand, our fans are not so lucky in the sense that the Lakers/Kobe don't get the same ref treatment the Bulls/Jordan were getting in the early 90s. nowadays, that treatment is going in the direction of the younger superstars of the league (Wade, LeBron, etc.). Just imagine how much greater Kobe could come off  to everyone if the league was backing him and the media had nothing against him, this is why Jordan had those MVPs and Kobe will probably never win 1...Imagine what it would be like if he got to the line every time he took it to the basket, if he got those extra trips that Jordan always did...It would be much easier to see what I was saying if that were the case...Unfortunately, the league makes it a little harder for us to compare certain players, they make it so that D-Wade seems comparable to Kobe, so basketball heads like me and you have to look into it to see the whole picture...Think about that and think about how lucky you are every time you get a chance to catch a Laker game and watch history happening...Think about the endless possibilites and think about how much was still ahead of Jordan at the age of 28...PeACe

Man i consider myself blessed. First of all because i grew up watching Magic. And now because Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan i've ever seen. I'm blessed, like i said. And i'm blessed i've always supported the Lakers since day-1. Since when i used to dress those ugly violet jerseys at school (do you remember them?) with Magic printed on them doing a sky-hook (while everybody and their moma had the Jordan's, and them black shirts with the white Nike Air Jordan logo on them).

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

I respect your opinion... I'm glad that we can debate this topic on a mature level...Antonio and wcsoldier prove that not everyone on WCC needs to resort to phottoshopped pics and childish disses to keep up in a debate with me. We all basically share the same opinion, we just have different views on 'em...In my opinion, Kobe WILL lead his team to more titles and be seen as the greatest, by a fair amount of people at least. And I truly hope that opinion becomes a reality... now we just have to wait and see...PeACe

[wcsoldier]

^^^^^ yep like I said we are here to Xchange opinions.. not to take it on a personal level... well I try to debate as much as I can, but I don't always have the vocabulary to mean what I want.. so it ain't easy... I watch B-Ball for years so I like Xchange deeper views but the fact English isn't my former language is kind of a pb.. back on topic  of course Kobe will lead us to more titles, if u don't believe it, I don't know how you can be a Lakers fan

[Antonio_]

^^^^^ yep like I said we are here to Xchange opinions.. not to take it on a personal level... well I try to debate as much as I can, but I don't always have the vocabulary to mean what I want.. so it ain't easy... I watch B-Ball for years so I like Xchange deeper views but the fact English isn't my former language is kind of a pb.. back on topic  of course Kobe will lead us to more titles, if u don't believe it, I don't know how you can be a Lakers fan

[Fuck Your Existence]

lmao,this needs to be stickied

[thisoneguy360]

You guys are funny

[PLANT]

Michael was good, but not on my level.  The refs used to give Mike calls like they do to Wade now.  Man, I have to fight for every call I get because they NBA hates me now.  Not everyone thinks Im better than Mike, but if you ask Phil, he will tell you.  Once my off the ball game gets better like next season, I will be the Goat.  Its crazy like Black Mamba.

[REGIME MOB 510]

I respect your opinion... I'm glad that we can debate this topic on a mature level...Antonio and wcsoldier prove that not everyone on WCC needs to resort to phottoshopped pics and childish disses to keep up in a debate with me. We all basically share the same opinion, we just have different views on 'em...In my opinion, Kobe WILL lead his team to more titles and be seen as the greatest, by a fair amount of people at least. And I truly hope that opinion becomes a reality... now we just have to wait and see...PeACe

LMAO at this retarded faggot.  get off kobe's nuts bro, jordan is the goat, and will continue to be.  i dont giv a fuck what you think the potential of kobe is or could be one day.  there are winners, and there are losers.  right now kobe is a loser for fucking a broke down hoe in colorado, and jordan is a pimp for having a gambling habit and making half a billion dollars a year from the jordan clothing line.  i dont care what you say about kobe, but he cant lead a team like jordan, and he cant win 3 back to back championship rings, consecutively, ya bitch!