Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Attatchment and Addiction to Created Things Is Slavery...
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: 11z on April 29, 2007, 08:21:40 AM ---I would think I'm reading the words of an anarchist like no-one before him, were it not for the ridiculous submission to Allah. See Brian, you made some excellent points about dependancy here, but the thing is you fail to recognise the patheticness of the slavery you submit yourself to. It may seem as though you've used your own free will to decide to choose to submit to Allah, but realistically...
- Does a free will exist?
- How free was your will when you chose to submit to Allah?
- Isn't submission slavery by definition?
Of course, you can be as free as your imagination allows you to be. You can live in a dream world where everything is as you (or in your case "your creator") put it, but then there's no point in connecting yourself to the real world. In other words: either snap out of that dream because you're intelligent (yet insane) and perfectly capable of living among other human beings... Or run from life and be sure no one awakes you from your dreams. I've heard fantastic things about heroin, but a shack on the hill side in Pakistan should do.
That's not intended as a diss, because I've always admired those who dare to dream. It's just deceiving and disillusional, that's all, and that's why you should protect yourself from the "truth".
--- End quote ---
I don't like repeating myself, but you went so far as to post a link and asked me to respond in another thread. So I will waste my time and repeat myself.
Again, like I said in the opening thread. If you are addicted to a created thing, like a human being, that that person has their own needs and their own interests. So slavery or addiction to a human being for example, could lead to exploitation. On the other hand, Allah is self-sufficient, and only gives benefit to those who believe in Him. Therefore, I am a slave to Allah, and yes, my submission is slavery. And my slavery to Allah is not something that bemeans me or puts me down, but it raises me many times over.
You are also a slave to Allah. You are not free enough not to breathe. You also have to follow the laws of the Creator. The only difference is I willingly submit, while you make a false claim of being in control.
As for free will, from a human perspective, the Creator (Allah) had full knowledge of his creation before he created it. From a human perspective we have free will, but ultimately he knows which choice we will make.
Elevz:
I don't consider that repeating yourself or wasting your time - that was a very humble post. Props.
--- Quote from: Shakur Abdul-Latif's Definition Of Hip-Hop..by -Infinite- on May 04, 2007, 09:10:11 PM ---Again, like I said in the opening thread. If you are addicted to a created thing, like a human being, that that person has their own needs and their own interests. So slavery or addiction to a human being for example, could lead to exploitation. On the other hand, Allah is self-sufficient, and only gives benefit to those who believe in Him. Therefore, I am a slave to Allah, and yes, my submission is slavery. And my slavery to Allah is not something that bemeans me or puts me down, but it raises me many times over.
--- End quote ---
I agree on how that could lead to exploitation by another human being. The question that pops up in my head though, is how much does your religion allow the same thing to happen? Who or what is pulling the strings there, and isn't exploitation possible there too? In search of truth, and I know the Islam is just that, isn't it logical to carefully consider all the possible options? Just some thoughts:
It is very well possible that Allah is the creator of everything: we will never know whether this is true or not. But don't you ever wonder why Allah, if He's as righteous as you say He is, only gives benefit to those who believe in Him, as you stated? How does righteousness match with benefiting anyway? Doesn't that make Allah's followers ultimately selfish? Why should Allah reward just them, and not those who don't submit to Him?
In other words, something about the motives of your religion gives me a hint of slavery and oppression. After all, there is no truth in Allah's existance: there is no proof of Him or His actions. Feeling his presence or his power may very well be psychologically explainable, comparable to the workings of placebo's. I'm not saying it is, but it is an option. That could perfectly explain just why believing in Him 'raises' you time after time. To put it simple: does Allah exist all by himself, or does he exist because His believers MAKE him exist? After all, the latter would obviously mean He has been created by man. That would not make him more or less 'true', but it does make a difference when it comes to the subject of slavery coming from attachment or addiction to things created by man.
--- Quote from: Shakur Abdul-Latif's Definition Of Hip-Hop..by -Infinite- on May 04, 2007, 09:10:11 PM ---You are also a slave to Allah. You are not free enough not to breathe. You also have to follow the laws of the Creator. The only difference is I willingly submit, while you make a false claim of being in control.
As for free will, from a human perspective, the Creator (Allah) had full knowledge of his creation before he created it. From a human perspective we have free will, but ultimately he knows which choice we will make.
--- End quote ---
I never did say I could live without breathing; I never did claim to be in total control. Whether it's Allah or the forces of nature ruling over us makes very little difference if you ask me. Perhaps you could say I submit myself to those forces as well, which would be a big fallacy on my part, as I don't know who or what created those forces. I don't have to pray five times a day for the big apple tree in my back yard though. I (unconsciously) submit to whatever powers are ruling over me, and that's that.
Once again, thanks for the humble reply.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: 11z on May 05, 2007, 03:14:42 AM ---I don't consider that repeating yourself or wasting your time - that was a very humble post. Props.
--- Quote from: Shakur Abdul-Latif's Definition Of Hip-Hop..by -Infinite- on May 04, 2007, 09:10:11 PM ---Again, like I said in the opening thread. If you are addicted to a created thing, like a human being, that that person has their own needs and their own interests. So slavery or addiction to a human being for example, could lead to exploitation. On the other hand, Allah is self-sufficient, and only gives benefit to those who believe in Him. Therefore, I am a slave to Allah, and yes, my submission is slavery. And my slavery to Allah is not something that bemeans me or puts me down, but it raises me many times over.
--- End quote ---
I agree on how that could lead to exploitation by another human being. The question that pops up in my head though, is how much does your religion allow the same thing to happen? Who or what is pulling the strings there, and isn't exploitation possible there too? In search of truth, and I know the Islam is just that, isn't it logical to carefully consider all the possible options? Just some thoughts:
It is very well possible that Allah is the creator of everything: we will never know whether this is true or not. But don't you ever wonder why Allah, if He's as righteous as you say He is, only gives benefit to those who believe in Him, as you stated? How does righteousness match with benefiting anyway? Doesn't that make Allah's followers ultimately selfish? Why should Allah reward just them, and not those who don't submit to Him?
In other words, something about the motives of your religion gives me a hint of slavery and oppression. After all, there is no truth in Allah's existance: there is no proof of Him or His actions. Feeling his presence or his power may very well be psychologically explainable, comparable to the workings of placebo's. I'm not saying it is, but it is an option. That could perfectly explain just why believing in Him 'raises' you time after time. To put it simple: does Allah exist all by himself, or does he exist because His believers MAKE him exist? After all, the latter would obviously mean He has been created by man. That would not make him more or less 'true', but it does make a difference when it comes to the subject of slavery coming from attachment or addiction to things created by man.
--- Quote from: Shakur Abdul-Latif's Definition Of Hip-Hop..by -Infinite- on May 04, 2007, 09:10:11 PM ---You are also a slave to Allah. You are not free enough not to breathe. You also have to follow the laws of the Creator. The only difference is I willingly submit, while you make a false claim of being in control.
As for free will, from a human perspective, the Creator (Allah) had full knowledge of his creation before he created it. From a human perspective we have free will, but ultimately he knows which choice we will make.
--- End quote ---
I never did say I could live without breathing; I never did claim to be in total control. Whether it's Allah or the forces of nature ruling over us makes very little difference if you ask me. Perhaps you could say I submit myself to those forces as well, which would be a big fallacy on my part, as I don't know who or what created those forces. I don't have to pray five times a day for the big apple tree in my back yard though. I (unconsciously) submit to whatever powers are ruling over me, and that's that.
Once again, thanks for the humble reply.
--- End quote ---
^^^ I appreciate your polite response. You have spoken well, and I will reply later when I have time.. peace.
jeromechickenbone:
Seriously Brian, what about addiction to religion? Why is that not bad?
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: 11z on May 05, 2007, 03:14:42 AM ---
It is very well possible that Allah is the creator of everything: we will never know whether this is true or not. But don't you ever wonder why Allah, if He's as righteous as you say He is, only gives benefit to those who believe in Him, as you stated? How does righteousness match with benefiting anyway? Doesn't that make Allah's followers ultimately selfish? Why should Allah reward just them, and not those who don't submit to Him?
--- End quote ---
First of all, it is not disputable whether or not Allah is the Creator. In fact, we don't even need to have the name of "Allah" if that's what is confusing you. We could just say "Creator". If a man grows up on an abandoned island, and he is worshipping the one who created him and created all things, then he is worshipping the same thing that I worship, whether he knows the name "Allah" or not, the concept is the same.
Allah gives benefit to people whether they believe in him or not. He is keeping you breathing isn't he? There's a story of a believing man, who refused to invite a 100 year old man to dinner who didn't believe. And then it was explained to him, that Allah had fed him for 100 years even though he disbelieved, so he could invite him for one meal. You get the point.
--- Quote from: 11z on May 05, 2007, 03:14:42 AM ---
In other words, something about the motives of your religion gives me a hint of slavery and oppression. After all, there is no truth in Allah's existance: there is no proof of Him or His actions. Feeling his presence or his power may very well be psychologically explainable, comparable to the workings of placebo's. I'm not saying it is, but it is an option. That could perfectly explain just why believing in Him 'raises' you time after time. To put it simple: does Allah exist all by himself, or does he exist because His believers MAKE him exist? After all, the latter would obviously mean He has been created by man. That would not make him more or less 'true', but it does make a difference when it comes to the subject of slavery coming from attachment or addiction to things created by man.
I never did say I could live without breathing; I never did claim to be in total control. Whether it's Allah or the forces of nature ruling over us makes very little difference if you ask me. Perhaps you could say I submit myself to those forces as well, which would be a big fallacy on my part, as I don't know who or what created those forces. I don't have to pray five times a day for the big apple tree in my back yard though. I (unconsciously) submit to whatever powers are ruling over me, and that's that.
Once again, thanks for the humble reply.
--- End quote ---
The creation is proof of the Creator. Simple as that.
Secondly, as you were saying, you submit unconsciously. Well, a Muslim submits consciously. That is the difference.
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