Going Off On Tanjints Vol.2: West coast music's purpose

[CaliKorleone]

 I think these cats don't realize that lyrics are a secondary function and focus of West coast music.
                 
-T

and right there is the problem with the west coast.

Indeed.

That is not the problem with the west coast.  Lyrics are a secondary function is true.  Mood comes first, then the beat, then lyrics.  That's how it is on the west coast.  Why should the west coast change that?  To make the east coast critics happy?  To make some rap magazine happy?  We shouldn't change for anybody.  If we as westcoast fans like our music, cool, its for us.  If an east coast fan doesn't like west coast music, who cares, don't listen to it.  We like it and that all that should matter, not some opinion of some dudes in New York.

[SP0RTY]

nice post but i dont think the west is all production based...thats the south. to me the west is like a blend of good beats and lyrics...straight up production is the south...west gives a gangsta feel or just a good feel kinda like the sunrise i guesss...but were not all about production

[Tanjential]

 I think these cats don't realize that lyrics are a secondary function and focus of West coast music.
                 
-T

and right there is the problem with the west coast.

Indeed.

That is not the problem with the west coast.  Lyrics are a secondary function is true.  Mood comes first, then the beat, then lyrics.  That's how it is on the west coast.  Why should the west coast change that?  To make the east coast critics happy?  To make some rap magazine happy?  We shouldn't change for anybody.  If we as westcoast fans like our music, cool, its for us.  If an east coast fan doesn't like west coast music, who cares, don't listen to it.  We like it and that all that should matter, not some opinion of some dudes in New York.

'

Exactly my original point. BC and Damizza got SLAMMED in that review but the reviewer wasn't even trying to see what they were trying to do.

It's like if those dudes started a lemonade stand and someone bought some and wanted a refund and was like "Yo this is the most sour orange juice ever!" and BC and Damizza's just like, "Damn, we was makin' lemonade! What're you talkin' about?" you know? You can't judge art based on the premise that everyone's trying to do the same thing.


and as far as production, I feel like the south focuses on making production marketable/club-friendly but the west makes it textured, melodic, and catchy and often the focal point of a song. Look at Game's albums (his mixtapes are another story, but his albums are great examples). He's not exactly the next Rakim or even Nas but the tracks come together dopely in large part cause of the production which is NOT a diss to him. He's not the most dextrous rhymer or anything but he knows how to put dope shit together which is more than alot of really dextrous rhymers (Ras Kass sometimes, can't think of others off the top) can do.



-T

[CaliKorleone]

 I think these cats don't realize that lyrics are a secondary function and focus of West coast music.
                 
-T

and right there is the problem with the west coast.

Indeed.

That is not the problem with the west coast.  Lyrics are a secondary function is true.  Mood comes first, then the beat, then lyrics.  That's how it is on the west coast.  Why should the west coast change that?  To make the east coast critics happy?  To make some rap magazine happy?  We shouldn't change for anybody.  If we as westcoast fans like our music, cool, its for us.  If an east coast fan doesn't like west coast music, who cares, don't listen to it.  We like it and that all that should matter, not some opinion of some dudes in New York.

'

Exactly my original point. BC and Damizza got SLAMMED in that review but the reviewer wasn't even trying to see what they were trying to do.

-T

Yup he was paying attention to the lyrics like what most east coast fans do.  You have to have a west coast mindset to understand was Back B4 You're Lonely was all about.

[Tanjential]

Bump, I thought this was a cool discussion.

-T

[SGV]

Around the time Damizza and BC's "Back B4 Ur Lonely" dropped, there was that DMX quote dissing the repetitive topics of WC rap and there wad that horribly scathing review of Back B4 Ur Lonely by that really east coast centric rap magazine/website and what I couldn't help but notice is how focused both of these sources were focused on lyrics.

I don't think you realize that lyrics is what makes Hip Hop... well... Hip Hop. Of course they're going to focus on lyrics...

I think these cats don't realize that lyrics are a secondary function and focus of West coast music. People came out to California to find gold, to become actors, and to experience freedom. Whereas the NY dream is more about making it big in whatever it is you're doing. That said, the music is going to have a different purpose, a different feel. West coast music is often about just recreating the feeling of a breezy sunset. To me the best example of this is Warren G's "This DJ". How does that not FEEL like a sunset?

You think some critic who's sitting up in an apartment in Brooklyn, cold than a mutha is gonna be listening to a West Coast album to hear the recreated feeling of a breezy sunset? C'mon man. That has to be one of the worst explanations of West Coast Hip Hop I've ever heard.

Anyway, these scathing assessments of West coast rap seem completely ignorant of how sonically terrible most East coast/mainstream hip-hop sounds. Even Nas' latest album, while containting some dope raps sounds pretty horrible on a production level for the most part. There's like 5 hot beats on it. Really, Back B4 Ur Lonely is a better produced record than that one in my opinion. And that's not a diss to Nas; I think his whole point was to focus back on the raps (hence the accapella track at the end) but it's okay for East coast cats to be vocal-oriented but it's not okay for West coast cats to be production-oriented? It's alot of bias, and it seems like a case of one coast wanted to kick the other while they're down. West coast ain't making as much noise as it used to on the mainstream scene and some of these assholes want to remind us of that, knock our self esteem and keep it that way.

Nas has a bad ear for beats. But listen to Jigga. Listen to Cam'Ron. Listen to Fabolous. Listen to 50 Cent. To say that East Coast Mainstream Hip Hop is "sonically terrible" is ridiculous. With the exception of Nas, most East Coast cats get great production. N.O.R.E. always has top notch production. Cassidy, Beanie Sigel, Jadakiss... the same. If the East Coast didn't care about production they wouldn't waste money on getting Timbo, the Neptunes, Kanye, Swizz Beats etc. You're speaking with a bias here, in all reality. The first focus for the East Coast has and always will be their lyrics. But guess what? That's what Hip Hop was based on. Making G-Funk sounding beats was super cool in 1994, but 13 years later its tired. No one outside of CA wants to hear "Sunday Afternoon BBQ Music" from the West. We got enough of that. So in 2007, if you're not putting an effort into your lyrics, you will get called on it.

That said, the cat that reviewed Butch and Damizza didn't even realize that the record's just supposed to be some shit to feel good. Yeah, "Cruz'n" may not be the lyrical masterpiece that "NY State Of Mind" or even "Hip-Hop Is Dead" is but it's really funky, pretty, and great to chill and smoke to. These cats don't even realize what the music is for, nor are they in a context to enjoy it. What right do they have to speak so harshly on some independent cats trying to do the damn thing? It's one thing to say you don't like some shit; that's cool. But to say it's straight horrible when you don't even know what's going on? You can miss me with that shit.

He's a critic of Hip Hop music. He has all the right to say something is horrible if he wants. Even if it is "some independent cats trying to do the damn thing." That is not an excuse. Independent or not, you have to bring out good music. ESPECIALLY if you are indepenedent!! Just like cats go around here dissing Soulja Boy, Hurricane Chris and Lil Jon cuz their lyrics aren't coherent... It's the same thing. Those dudes aren't making their music to be considered the next KRS-One. They make happy-go-lucky-feel-good-step-in-the-club-and-get-down music. But let the masses of Dubcc tell it and they're making wack ass music and they're killing Hip Hop. Where's the outrage from you for that Tanj? Sounds like a bias to me...

West coast music has it's origins in funk. People weren't looking to George Clinton(not that he's West coast, but as far as the aesthetics of his music) for intelligence and political commentary (though sometimes he gave it, "Chocolate City" anyone?) they were looking for the newest beat to get stuck in their head and dance to. And to me, that's what alot of West coast music is about.

As stated earlier, that was all good in 1994. It's 2007. The reason the West Coast is so far behind is because fans like you allow West Coast artist make mediocre music, as long as it's a "funky beat." That shit is tired now man.

That's not to say alot of cats on the West shouldn't improve their topics/rapping, but I think you guys see my point and that's another discussion entirely.

Thats all the critic is saying: Step your lyrics game up.

-T
[/quote]

[es-jay]

^some very good points there.

[Tanjential]

I agree the lyrics should be stepped up but I think my lemonade/orange juice analogy explains where I'm coming from.

 Lyrics are a part of it, but they're not everything. The reviewer was NOT just saying 'step your lyrics game up'. They were saying 'this record is horrible', with no qualification to the statement. If it was just "step your lyrics game up", I would have no problem with it. I say the same thing about most west coast rap.

and yeah I am biased, I still like laid back sunny barbecue music so that shit has a function for me. 3/4 of hip hop is dead? Despite being dope poetry, has no function for me or place in my listening schedule you know?

and I guess it's my bias speaking again but Jigga, camron, fabolous and 50 with the exception of their first records are very hit and miss with their beat selection as well in my opinion.

        I guess if this same reviewer is just as harsh on east coast records with whack beats, i'd be down to rescind my comments.
-T

[SGV]

You've probably never seen a NORE review then. Almost all NORE reviews focus on his lack of attention in the lyrics department. It's all opinion but those dudes I named usually have the hardest beats of the respective year when their album drops. They have a good ear for that. Yeah, it's a horrible record to anyone outside of CA (or West Coast Fans) because they're not trying to hear that type of music anymore. Coupled with poor lyrics, it makes the album even worse. All in all, I could understand your frustration if this was a review on The Game's album (I'd even give you today's Ice Cube), but Damizza and Butch Cassidy are not a total representation of the West Coast as a whole.

As for your Lemonade/Orange Juice analogy... If their customers (The critic) are expecting Orange Juice (a well rounded Hip Hop album) but they get Lemonade (Back B4 Ur Lonely), damn right they'll be outraged. They were expecting one thing and got another...

[Tanjential]

and that's legit, I'm just saying, I feel BC/Damizza were never saying 'yo we got orange juice!'. I recall them saying with all their promotional pushes 'this is a party album, some shit to smoke to'\

and you're right, they are more like a hip hop influenced funk/rnb group more than some straight west coast rap.

-T

[SGV]

Just like cats on Dubcc disregard "this is a party album," when it comes to Southern Hip Hop, this critic did as well. Some people look at Hip Hop in one tunnel. They don't care if it's party music, gangsta music, militant music, afro-centric music... they just want good Hip Hop.

[Tanjential]

yeah, legit. But I think hip hop/rap has grown into far too much for people to still look at it like that.

On a side note, anyone else notice that most people dubcnn interviews only seem to listen to mainstream music?

There's that same conversation that happens every time

"What do you think of the current state of hip hop?"

and the artist is like "Oh man, I don't wanna sound like a hater but this shit is whack, people need to step their game up with these dances and popcorn bubblegum this that.." etc. I'm like "Dude, Dawaun parker doesn't know about backpacker stuff? He doesn't fuck with Murs and shit like that?" you know? It's sad that these artists are listening to the shit that they wanna be and not the shit that they wanna hear. it's sad that if an artist doesn't have a big platform like MTV or radio to sound off on, that even other artists ain't checking for that real shit.

I admit I don't read every interview anymore, but that's the impression I get from the ones I read.

-T

[SGV]

What's wrong with digging Mainstream though? You act like that's such a bad thing. If NORE is listening to the latest Mainstream album, it benefits him. He's learning about his competition. I'm sure he bumps underground shit, but what benefit does NORE have from mentioning Underground rapper #1? Unless that's his boy, why would he give someone that promo? This is a business as much as it is an art. Things need to make business sense...

And, of course, when talking about the Current State of Hip Hop, they are not talking about the Underground. The Underground is the only thing that has not changed in Hip Hop and it never will. The "Current State of Hip Hop" pertains to the Mainstream, as that what determines if Hip Hop is popular or not. I'm sure these dudes listen to Underground shit, it's next to impossible not to, but I could see you having a case if the question was asked "Who are you feeling from the Underground?" and they answer with "Nobody. I only fuck with that Mainstream shit." But that's not the case here.

[Tanjential]

well that's why I said 'seem to' in my initial statement.

and there's nothing wrong with listening to mainstream. ONLY listening to mainstream though is a little more iffy.

and I say that because they are asked about the state of hip hop, not the music that is popular right now. I guess it could just be a misleading discussion if not everyone is on the same terms/definitions.

-T

[SGV]

Yeah the state of Hip Hop is not Murs. It's not Aesop Rock. It's not E.S.G. It's not Ric Jilla. Why? Because they really have no impact on todays world of Hip Hop. Souja Boy, Jay-Z, Snoop Dogg, Twista... these are the cats that solidify the state of Hip Hop. So if asked: What do you think about West Coast Hip Hop's State right now? My answer would be: Outside of Game, Snoop and E-40 nobody is really pumping their name out there right now. We're still waiting for Bishop Lamont, Mistah F.A.B., Omar Cruz and Clyde Carson to make some more noise.

Why would I answer like that? Well, because if someone from outside of the West Coast is asking me about the state of the West, could you really expect them to know about obscure West Coast underground acts like E-Knoc? Not that he's wack, but he's just not really known outside of the West Coast.

State of Hip Hop to me and to most other people is what is representing Hip Hop right now...

Btw, only listening to mainstream is not iffy, it's merely just their taste in music. Not everyone can or will like Underground. Sometimes they don't talk about issues they wanna hear. Sometimes their lyrics aren't what they like. Sometimes their beats aren't to their liking. To expect people to listen to Underground is kind dictative in my eyes.