Ken Griffey Jr.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barry Bonds

[Shallow]

first off.... stars of old being on roids is a huge assumption on your part. At this point it's only something that you can speculate about. I am not saying that you are wrong, but you can't say that you are completely right either.

As far as the average speed pitch being a higher average... so far all we have is your word to go on that. If you can show me something then I will happily agree.

I never meant to imply it as fact with regards to stars of old being roided. Though nothing will ever change my mind.


And I'll see what I can find on pitch speed. I don't however remember all that many 90+ mil an hour pitchers in the old days. I could be wrong about that though.

[Styles1]

Sure thing... I understand believing what you want to believe. We all have that right.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

[Styles1]

I agree... but people are going to believe what they want to believe no matter what.

I mean, you've got people in this world believing that a certain Korean minister is the 2nd coming of Christ and nothing is going to convince them of anything different...lol.

[Shallow]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

Oh my God, NIK you've just officially become stupider than Bryan/Infinite.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

Oh my God, NIK you've just officially become stupider than Bryan/Infinite.

Yea, really...because we all know what you just said regarding NBA players not only makes perfect sense, but holds a ton of credibility.


LMFAO@Magic Johnson taking steroids...Shoot yourself in the eyeball, you waste of air.

[Shallow]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

Oh my God, NIK you've just officially become stupider than Bryan/Infinite.

Yea, really...because we all know what you just said regarding NBA players not only makes perfect sense, but holds a ton of credibility.


LMFAO@Magic Johnson taking steroids...Shoot yourself in the eyeball, you waste of air.

I will the second you look up the roots of sarcasm. You fucking idiot. You can't even pick up simple things like me claiming that you're two favourite players being roid heads while the few that you constantly speak out against being the only ones that don't take roids and distinguish the difference between what is a solid statement and what is a joke. And you think you can distinguish between Jordan and Kobe as to who was better. Regardless of who is better you do not hold the mental capacity to make that distinction.

And I actually thought when you said "poster of the year" you weren't being sarcastic and were acknowledging that it was a joke. Albeit not the greatest joke but to think it was a serious opinion really says a lot about you.

My theory on steroids stems from facts. Fact; USSR used them in the 50s to win medals. Fact, the US got them running strong by the early 60s. Fact it spread to much of the sports world. I use my own logic, which may be wrong, to imply that (since different steroids account for different advantages, not just strength),  it would have gained popularity and spread like wildfire at the amateur levels just to keep the playing field level. Whether it be Jordan or Bird, Magic or Isaiah. I feel that at the younger levels, college even high school athletes of the post 60s competing for spots would not let lesser players get those spots due to cheating so they cheated too, thus eliminating the idea of cheating. If Tyson was on roids and Holmes was on roids then Tyson wouldn't be a cheater.

I know I'm going out on a bit of a limb, but it's based on solid fact and logic. Not on fairy tales like Styles 1 example of the Korean God or whatever he said.

[Styles1]

Hey everybody has so-called facts to back up what they believe.... you have yours ...and the weird Mooney's that were used in my example have theirs too... lol. 

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

Oh my God, NIK you've just officially become stupider than Bryan/Infinite.

Yea, really...because we all know what you just said regarding NBA players not only makes perfect sense, but holds a ton of credibility.


LMFAO@Magic Johnson taking steroids...Shoot yourself in the eyeball, you waste of air.

I will the second you look up the roots of sarcasm. You fucking idiot. You can't even pick up simple things like me claiming that you're two favourite players being roid heads while the few that you constantly speak out against being the only ones that don't take roids and distinguish the difference between what is a solid statement and what is a joke. And you think you can distinguish between Jordan and Kobe as to who was better. Regardless of who is better you do not hold the mental capacity to make that distinction.

And I actually thought when you said "poster of the year" you weren't being sarcastic and were acknowledging that it was a joke. Albeit not the greatest joke but to think it was a serious opinion really says a lot about you.

My theory on steroids stems from facts. Fact; USSR used them in the 50s to win medals. Fact, the US got them running strong by the early 60s. Fact it spread to much of the sports world. I use my own logic, which may be wrong, to imply that (since different steroids account for different advantages, not just strength),  it would have gained popularity and spread like wildfire at the amateur levels just to keep the playing field level. Whether it be Jordan or Bird, Magic or Isaiah. I feel that at the younger levels, college even high school athletes of the post 60s competing for spots would not let lesser players get those spots due to cheating so they cheated too, thus eliminating the idea of cheating. If Tyson was on roids and Holmes was on roids then Tyson wouldn't be a cheater.

I know I'm going out on a bit of a limb, but it's based on solid fact and logic. Not on fairy tales like Styles 1 example of the Korean God or whatever he said.

Yea, because sarcasm is easily detected through text, huh, shit-for-brains? Don't blame me if I thought you were stupid enough to actually believe that...I've been reading your posts for some time now, so it's not my fault...PeACe

[Shallow]

Hey everybody has so-called facts to back up what they believe.... you have yours ...and the weird Mooney's that were used in my example have theirs too... lol. 

There is a different between frivolous claims and facts. The US olympic and USSR doctors admitted to working with steroids. Athletes have been caught witth them in their systems. No one has seen any evidence of Jesus in Korea and no one can bring that evidence to the table. So if you're trying to convince me that the two examples equate don't bother, because they don't. If you're trying to cinvince me that there is solid evidence to support the Mooney claims then show me the evidence. If you understand the difference and are only making a joke then my bad.

[Shallow]

^Yea, but his opinion holds no weight...He lost all credibility when he said:

Kobe Bryant and Magic Johnson. Everyone but Jordan, Bird, Shaq and Steve Nash have taken Steroids. Those are the only four to not touch it. Maybe Duncan too.

Oh my God, NIK you've just officially become stupider than Bryan/Infinite.

Yea, really...because we all know what you just said regarding NBA players not only makes perfect sense, but holds a ton of credibility.


LMFAO@Magic Johnson taking steroids...Shoot yourself in the eyeball, you waste of air.

I will the second you look up the roots of sarcasm. You fucking idiot. You can't even pick up simple things like me claiming that you're two favourite players being roid heads while the few that you constantly speak out against being the only ones that don't take roids and distinguish the difference between what is a solid statement and what is a joke. And you think you can distinguish between Jordan and Kobe as to who was better. Regardless of who is better you do not hold the mental capacity to make that distinction.

And I actually thought when you said "poster of the year" you weren't being sarcastic and were acknowledging that it was a joke. Albeit not the greatest joke but to think it was a serious opinion really says a lot about you.

My theory on steroids stems from facts. Fact; USSR used them in the 50s to win medals. Fact, the US got them running strong by the early 60s. Fact it spread to much of the sports world. I use my own logic, which may be wrong, to imply that (since different steroids account for different advantages, not just strength),  it would have gained popularity and spread like wildfire at the amateur levels just to keep the playing field level. Whether it be Jordan or Bird, Magic or Isaiah. I feel that at the younger levels, college even high school athletes of the post 60s competing for spots would not let lesser players get those spots due to cheating so they cheated too, thus eliminating the idea of cheating. If Tyson was on roids and Holmes was on roids then Tyson wouldn't be a cheater.

I know I'm going out on a bit of a limb, but it's based on solid fact and logic. Not on fairy tales like Styles 1 example of the Korean God or whatever he said.

Yea, because sarcasm is easily detected through text, huh, shit-for-brains? Don't blame me if I thought you were stupid enough to actually believe that...I've been reading your posts for some time now, so it's not my fault...PeACe

The text clearly highlighted your two favourite ballers and juxtaposed them with four of your least favourite. It was easy to pick up for anyone with any logic. Post it up on a poll and ask the rest of the board that know you and your basketball preferences and see how many realize it was all said in jest. The only votes you'll get in your favour will be from people voting out of spite because no one else is that stupid to think it was serious. It's not even the kind of joke that requires sarcastic tone. In fact a sarcastic tone has no place with it. It requires dry sarcasm, so tone is meaningless. Now You Know.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

Jordan and Bird are some of my favorite players ever, dumbfuck...You're blaming me for thinking that you were stupid enough to believe that. LOL. You've made some ridiculously biased comments in the past, and your views on steroids are extreme, so I didn't put it past you. Nobody laughed at your "joke"...perhaps it's a sign of your reputation around here...PeACe

[Shallow]

Jordan and Bird are some of my favorite players ever, dumbfuck...You're blaming me for thinking that you were stupid enough to believe that. LOL. You've made some ridiculously biased comments in the past, and your views on steroids are extreme, so I didn't put it past you. Nobody laughed at your "joke"...perhaps it's a sign of your reputation around here...PeACe

So put up the poll and ask.


There is nothing extreme about assuming a couple thousand people in a country in 300 million are on steroids.


P.S. I already said he joke may not have been funny so no point trying to get me there. It was said the way it was not to make you laugh, but to dismiss you. Nothing I said or showed you would convince you that NBA ballers are on steroids. When you make up your mind you stick with it. The NBA has a program to test for steroids and has found people that tested positive. There are also many performance anhancement supllements that are legal and aren't tested. Steroids are illegal because of the dangers, not because it was unfair. If player A takes all the right vitamins, and supllements and hasa personal trainer instructing him along the way and he is of the same skill level as player B who relies solely on a natural diet and the game for excersize, player has an advatange and will perform better. If in 1958 if Dr David Kats and Dr Harrison Pope didn't discover the ill side effects of roids they would have been very legal.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

No basketball players use or have used steroids...Get over it. You need a lot more durability in basketball. Name me 3 players who you think have benefited in the NBA from the use of steroids with something to back it up. You can't do it...PeACe

[Shallow]

No basketball players use or have used steroids...Get over it. You need a lot more durability in basketball. Name me 3 players who you think have benefited in the NBA from the use of steroids with something to back it up. You can't do it...PeACe

Three players "I think" that "have benefiited"? What's the point? You'll just shoot it down. If it's not a problem and it doesn't help you in basketball ten why do they test it? Why was Juan Dixon questioned in the steroid meetings by congress. Why wouldn't they release exactly what Chris Anderson and Stanley Roberts tested positive for when they got kicked out? No one believed it was a huge problem in 80s baseball. They dismissed Canseco's claims that over 80% of the league juiced up. Now everyone just asumes they are all on it. The MLB was trying to protect it's name. The word steroid has a terrible effect on public opinion. The other leagues don't want that attention.


P.S. Durability and muscles go hand in hand. Steroids aren't just for becoming huge. Was Ben Jonson really that much thicker than Charles Oakley or most NBA players. Keep in mind how much taller a guy like David Robinson is. The stretched mucle isn't as wide. Bret Hart used steroids in wrestling. Was he really that huge when compared to huge guys? I might be wrong, but I'm not far fetched.