Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Wake Up Before We All Slaves... To Our Government
7even:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on January 24, 2008, 04:14:38 PM ---
You are cool 7even and what I said is not addressed to you exactly, was merely responding to you mentioned Marx in a non negative light. I am just saying there are many menacing undertones to Marx's communist manifesto and then there are just the downright sick points in it like describing the family as the enemy, the evil, submit to the state, take the kids to indoctrination centres because the state will love you. I actually felt really sick after reading that manifesto, hence the reason why I addressed people that like communism in 3 groups. I never suggested you liked communism!
--- End quote ---
I like Marx for other things that don't involve communism, like his criticism on religion for instance. I never heard of those extreme and absurd points you just mentioned. Where have you heard that? Engel interpreted Marx' "Capital" and he made some mistakes. Later people never looked at Marx' Capital, but at the interpretation of Engel.
The problem is you can't take political positions of people who died long ago without a grain of salt, as the world and the circumstances were very different then. You also can't blame them for future politicians who later abused their doctrines for their own agendas. Honestly, from what I have read of Marx I can't imagine him writing the stuff you mentioned. He was a revolutionary, pro-proletarian thinker, I have a hard time envisioning him saying stuff that promotes unconditional submission to the state. In fact I reckon the manifest included points like abolishment of child labour and free education for everybody.
virtuoso:
Ive downloaded it again, will re read though it and then tell you. I might be wrong and it might have been some alternate communist doctrine I had read but will admit if I am wrong but anyways, the crux of my response to this thread, comes in my first rant ;D
7even:
--- Quote from: virtuoso on January 24, 2008, 05:08:10 PM ---
Ive downloaded it again, will re read though it and then tell you. I might be wrong and it might have been some alternate communist doctrine I had read but will admit if I am wrong but anyways, the crux of my response to this thread, comes in my first rant ;D
--- End quote ---
I agree with a lot of things stated in your long post, however, I am still not a fan of economic neo-liberalism. You think it's bad now, and it is, yet I am sure that no difficult western country can succeed without an income tax, and the US sure as hell is a difficult country. Countries like Norway, Finland or Switzerland MIGHT have a shot at trying to significantly reduce taxes and thrive. From my perspective, America does not.
I see your main issue with everything is basically how a small influential group of people is pulling the strings and controlling the masses. But the income tax is not the reason for that. It will always be like this, no matter what you do, they will always find a way. Either that or plain chaos. I hate 1984 as much as you, but I'd hate civil war even more.
As for the people complaining about tax money being wasted on bullshit, people have different values, that's what it is. Some people think it's great to spend money on renovating a church, others could care less and have it rather spent on renovating a bunch of liquor stores. Some people hate imperialistic foreign policies and don't want to see tax money spent on weapons, military and war, when others would love to bomb the shit out of the entire middle east. People are different, the government can't just focus on you as an individual.
As for the people who think people would use their money on things that are actually important if they had not to pay any income tax. I have to say you are either very naive or very idealistic. I think that is bullshit. For anybody spending his money wisely and in favor or the community, there would be 10 idiots doing complete bullshit with it (like losing it all on gambling, then dying on the street when they become old) and another 30 people being completely selfish with it.
Look up "prisoner's dilemma" in google. People are not made for this kind of life.
virtuoso:
The selfish misconception that induces you to transform into eternal laws of nature and of reason, the social forms springing from your present mode of production and form of property - historical relations that rise and disappear in the progress of production - this misconception you share with every ruling class that has preceded you. What you see clearly in the case of ancient property, what you admit in the case of feudal property, you are of course forbidden to admit in the case of your own bourgeois form of property.
Abolition [Aufhebung] of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.
On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.
The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.
Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.
But, you say, we destroy the most hallowed of relations, when we replace home education by social.
And your education! Is not that also social, and determined by the social conditions under which you educate, by the intervention direct or indirect, of society, by means of schools, &c.? The Communists have not invented the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class.
The bourgeois clap-trap about the family and education, about the hallowed co-relation of parents and child, becomes all the more disgusting, the more, by the action of Modern Industry, all the family ties among the proletarians are torn asunder, and their children transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labour.
I interpret that as ...the middle class are evil, we need to focus upon indoctrinating the younger generation with our message of total submission to the state and we need to sever the ties that bind the middle class parents with their children (in fact fuck it, they just said it themselves in the abolition of the family). The entire manifesto is based around key intentions all of which involve complete centralisation based around the reassurance of don't worry the state will administer and look after you. Only instead, as is illustrated in a terrific book call Harvest Of Sorrow in which Ukranian farmers with a slight independence were described as the Kulaks (bourgeoise) we need to smash these people and prevent them from looking after themselves, they should be producing grain for the greater good of the soviet union. Sobasically they seized all of their grain, millions starved to death and when they got rid of those people, the ones below them, were suddenly Kulaks in their eyes to. Aspects of communism would work in a utopian society where literal angels ran the state but instead it is the doctrine for evil.
I agree with you, that income tax isn't the only way, it's one of several ways. there are many strings to their bow but I was just illustrating how the wealth is really controlled, as opposed to people who think a million is something, it's chump change to these people. In fact the communism comparison begins to slowly become more and more apparent, as the authoritarian nature of this western society tightens it's grip. Some of have said that communism and capitalism were created to give people false paradigms, I don't know if the same group of people were the brain childs behind both, but nothing would surprise me anymore.
7even:
^^^With communism the situation is similiar to a dictatorship, in a utopian world with literal angels as the leaders, it would be pretty damn good. As this is never the case, both systems serve as tools for the evil. But I really don't want to talk about this communism stuff right now.
Here's more to the issue at hand:
Another very important aspect is the fact that you can't solve structural problems through individuals. The government is there to solve those kind of structural problems that individuals simply can not fix. By reducing taxes dramatically you take away the government's ability to do so. You shift the responsibilty towards the individual, which can never work for a number of reasons.
Let me tell you a little story:
There was this western dude, with western values and western morality. He was a business man, and on a business trip he went to India. Waking up in his hotel room, he got ready for a meeting and as soon as he stepped out of his room he saw a baby placed in front of it. He didn't understand what was going on. He asked people from the hotel who told him that this is a normal thing, families can't afford kids financially so they put them in front of doors of wealthy people. He was shocked as he could not understand how something so terrible could be considered normal and acceptable. He asked what he could do to help the baby, and he was told that he can give it to a church for 50 dollars. The church then takes care of it until it becomes 14 years old. Happier than ever, he willingly paid the church the 50 bucks, went back to the hotel and went to sleep with a smile on his face.
The next day, he opens his door and there are 40 babies in front of it.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version