Is Jay-Z A Better Songwriter Than Tupac?

[MediumL]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

I think my point was valid. Jays use of metaphors, punchlines and disses are all better than Pac. But Pac like you said is a true poet, a MC, that can actually make you feel strong about subjects. Jay does the hustler image well and has made some nice heart felt songs but not on Pacs level.

[Sparegeez]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

I think my point was valid. Jays use of metaphors, punchlines and disses are all better than Pac. But Pac like you said is a true poet, a MC, that can actually make you feel strong about subjects. Jay does the hustler image well and has made some nice heart felt songs but not on Pacs level.

I don't agree with what you're saying. But even if he was better at all those things than Pac, that doesn't mean he makes better songs. A lot of rappers these days gave good bars but not so great songs.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

Jay-Z is wack... only good rhymes he ever came up with were about the diamonds on his watch or something else I don't care about.

Pac is the GOAT

[Outlaw Immortal]

im neutral. and my dick doesnt get hard when ever i see the name 2pac. that nigger is the personification of overrated.

you think you're neutral then I'm neutral too .And jigga is the personification of overrated. At least there is a reason why 2 pac is overrated .Every successful artists who dies young/tragic will become a legend. Look at Kurt Cobain, Bob Marley, Mozart ,Elvis. Maybe all of them are overrated, but there is still something behind it. Like Pac said, the good die young.
So now we have the explanation for pac. But I can't find the explanation for Jays hype? Is it because we can't understand camel language, which means that only a chosen few can understand his genious lyrics. Or do his fans get horny because of his animalic noises? His last four albums are trash, and even his "classic" albums aren't revolutionary.
And it's not like I see 2pac as my personal saviour or something. Pac was very paranoid in his DR days, and I don't agree with many things he said or did. But music wise you can't deny that he was an outstanding artist in rap industry

im white and european, rich and smart. i got nothing to connect with 2pac. his flow sucked. and he was an asshole.

Shut your fucking mouth you spoiled waste of life. Hip hop was founded on struggle and was trying to be preserved from pieces of shit like you from listening to it and trying to corrupt it further.

Jay z is an excellent lyricist e.g. D'evils, 22s, 44s etc. But Tupac had written over 200 published poems which were then placed into many released and unreleased songs, not only that, just check out Me Against The World for song writing, honestly.

Over all Tupac is a much better lyricist than Jay Z, but Jay z is still a very good lyricist.

[smegma]

im white and european, rich and smart. i got nothing to connect with 2pac. his flow sucked. and he was an asshole.

Shut your fucking mouth you spoiled waste of life. Hip hop was founded on struggle and was trying to be preserved from pieces of shit like you from listening to it and trying to corrupt it further.

 

[Kill]

Pac was a poet, but not really a good one. He did write some good lyrics, but mostly his material followed a simple formula. I used to be a huge fan of his and I'm not meaning to sound condescending toward whoever still is, but my opinion on him has changed somewhat...yes, he had a great voice and he was one of the hiphop culture's most charismatic leaders, but if you look at his lyrics outside the context of his personal biography, they were rather simple stuff. Most of what people tend to label "deep" consisted of simple statements made about society, the struggle of the black man, street violence, drugs etc., which there's nothing wrong about, but profound subject matter doesn't automatically generate profound lyricism and mostly Pac just scratched the surface on complex issues, saying nothing that wasn't being said by a ton of others, but articulating it in a way that, along with his persona, helped creating this image that is the way many people see him today. That's what he was really good at: Creating this image of himself............................................on a side note, all the gangsta lyrics were nothing special at all and the glaring contradictions ('hey, let's change society and be brothers, first I'll just have to peel 25 nigguz caps cause they looked at me in a way I don't like, Wessscoast beyotch') made Pac look nothing short of stupid at times. I still like Pac to some degree, but here's an argument why I think he's overrated.

As for Jigga, he is completely different. He's a more skillful rapper than Pac and, yes I'm saying so, probably more intelligent than Pac was. Those lyrics of his which are insightful in a way ("D'Evils", "Can I Live", "Song Cry") are not better than Pac's on a substantial level, but they're more skillfully written. But I find it hard to compare the two, Jay is too completely different in the way he views himself and wants to be viewed. He wants to be that dope rapper on top of things that nobody can fuck with, but neither does he want to articulate society's problems, nor does his music intertwine with his life in any significant way, which are two fundamental aspects to the man Tupac Shakur, and therefore, the question can hardly be fully answered.

That said, I do think Jay-Z is better at doing what he does than Pac, but he does something significantly different. Which kind of hiphop and subject matter appeals more to whom is a rather personal thing.

[MediumL]

In terms of skills as a rapper Jays better.

 

I think my point was valid. Jays use of metaphors, punchlines and disses are all better than Pac. But Pac like you said is a true poet, a MC, that can actually make you feel strong about subjects. Jay does the hustler image well and has made some nice heart felt songs but not on Pacs level.

I don't agree with what you're saying. But even if he was better at all those things than Pac, that doesn't mean he makes better songs. A lot of rappers these days gave good bars but not so great songs.

But that was sort of what i was suggesting. In terms of rap skills Jay is better but in terms of being able to write amazing songs Pac is better. Jay is a quality song writer, anyone denying that is a straight hater (check SOng Cry and D'Evils).

[Lord Funk]

Pac was a poet, but not really a good one. He did write some good lyrics, but mostly his material followed a simple formula. I used to be a huge fan of his and I'm not meaning to sound condescending toward whoever still is, but my opinion on him has changed somewhat...yes, he had a great voice and he was one of the hiphop culture's most charismatic leaders, but if you look at his lyrics outside the context of his personal biography, they were rather simple stuff. Most of what people tend to label "deep" consisted of simple statements made about society, the struggle of the black man, street violence, drugs etc., which there's nothing wrong about, but profound subject matter doesn't automatically generate profound lyricism and mostly Pac just scratched the surface on complex issues, saying nothing that wasn't being said by a ton of others, but articulating it in a way that, along with his persona, helped creating this image that is the way many people see him today. That's what he was really good at: Creating this image of himself............................................on a side note, all the gangsta lyrics were nothing special at all and the glaring contradictions ('hey, let's change society and be brothers, first I'll just have to peel 25 nigguz caps cause they looked at me in a way I don't like, Wessscoast beyotch') made Pac look nothing short of stupid at times. I still like Pac to some degree, but here's an argument why I think he's overrated.

As for Jigga, he is completely different. He's a more skillful rapper than Pac and, yes I'm saying so, probably more intelligent than Pac was. Those lyrics of his which are insightful in a way ("D'Evils", "Can I Live", "Song Cry") are not better than Pac's on a substantial level, but they're more skillfully written. But I find it hard to compare the two, Jay is too completely different in the way he views himself and wants to be viewed. He wants to be that dope rapper on top of things that nobody can fuck with, but neither does he want to articulate society's problems, nor does his music intertwine with his life in any significant way, which are two fundamental aspects to the man Tupac Shakur, and therefore, the question can hardly be fully answered.

That said, I do think Jay-Z is better at doing what he does than Pac, but he does something significantly different. Which kind of hiphop and subject matter appeals more to whom is a rather personal thing.

I agree absolutely with everything Kill said here. And I couldn't have said any of it better

[corner_boy]

he sure had his bright spots, but overall, nah.

[Turf Hitta]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

[Furor Teutonicus]

Pac was a poet, but not really a good one. He did write some good lyrics, but mostly his material followed a simple formula. I used to be a huge fan of his and I'm not meaning to sound condescending toward whoever still is, but my opinion on him has changed somewhat...yes, he had a great voice and he was one of the hiphop culture's most charismatic leaders, but if you look at his lyrics outside the context of his personal biography, they were rather simple stuff. Most of what people tend to label "deep" consisted of simple statements made about society, the struggle of the black man, street violence, drugs etc., which there's nothing wrong about, but profound subject matter doesn't automatically generate profound lyricism and mostly Pac just scratched the surface on complex issues, saying nothing that wasn't being said by a ton of others, but articulating it in a way that, along with his persona, helped creating this image that is the way many people see him today. That's what he was really good at: Creating this image of himself............................................on a side note, all the gangsta lyrics were nothing special at all and the glaring contradictions ('hey, let's change society and be brothers, first I'll just have to peel 25 nigguz caps cause they looked at me in a way I don't like, Wessscoast beyotch') made Pac look nothing short of stupid at times. I still like Pac to some degree, but here's an argument why I think he's overrated.

As for Jigga, he is completely different. He's a more skillful rapper than Pac and, yes I'm saying so, probably more intelligent than Pac was. Those lyrics of his which are insightful in a way ("D'Evils", "Can I Live", "Song Cry") are not better than Pac's on a substantial level, but they're more skillfully written. But I find it hard to compare the two, Jay is too completely different in the way he views himself and wants to be viewed. He wants to be that dope rapper on top of things that nobody can fuck with, but neither does he want to articulate society's problems, nor does his music intertwine with his life in any significant way, which are two fundamental aspects to the man Tupac Shakur, and therefore, the question can hardly be fully answered.

That said, I do think Jay-Z is better at doing what he does than Pac, but he does something significantly different. Which kind of hiphop and subject matter appeals more to whom is a rather personal thing.

ok, I can understand your arguments. But if you use stylistic devices (punchlines, etc) doesn't mean you're a good songwriter. To me, CONTENT is more important for good songwriting, style comes second. Crooked I is also very skilled, but is he a good songwriter? Obviously not, since he isn't able to write songs that you could put on an album. I think good songwriting is when your songs are meaningful, have a message , people can associate etc... I see the skills you described more as "street rapper skills"
You can write that Pac's songs are contradicting/simple, but most of them are meaningful. And I can't say the same to jay's songs. He may have some songs which are substantial, but he always has to show how "cool" and rich he is, and I think he sounds to arrogant and egomaniac on his songs. And this part is usually dominant in his songs.
Of course, "you can define good songwriting skills" different, for example if you are able to write songs that are mass appealing, but my definition of songwriting is different.

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

good point

[Kill]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

Reasonable Doubt > any Pac album. But yes, it's all opinions.

Pac was a poet, but not really a good one. He did write some good lyrics, but mostly his material followed a simple formula. I used to be a huge fan of his and I'm not meaning to sound condescending toward whoever still is, but my opinion on him has changed somewhat...yes, he had a great voice and he was one of the hiphop culture's most charismatic leaders, but if you look at his lyrics outside the context of his personal biography, they were rather simple stuff. Most of what people tend to label "deep" consisted of simple statements made about society, the struggle of the black man, street violence, drugs etc., which there's nothing wrong about, but profound subject matter doesn't automatically generate profound lyricism and mostly Pac just scratched the surface on complex issues, saying nothing that wasn't being said by a ton of others, but articulating it in a way that, along with his persona, helped creating this image that is the way many people see him today. That's what he was really good at: Creating this image of himself............................................on a side note, all the gangsta lyrics were nothing special at all and the glaring contradictions ('hey, let's change society and be brothers, first I'll just have to peel 25 nigguz caps cause they looked at me in a way I don't like, Wessscoast beyotch') made Pac look nothing short of stupid at times. I still like Pac to some degree, but here's an argument why I think he's overrated.

As for Jigga, he is completely different. He's a more skillful rapper than Pac and, yes I'm saying so, probably more intelligent than Pac was. Those lyrics of his which are insightful in a way ("D'Evils", "Can I Live", "Song Cry") are not better than Pac's on a substantial level, but they're more skillfully written. But I find it hard to compare the two, Jay is too completely different in the way he views himself and wants to be viewed. He wants to be that dope rapper on top of things that nobody can fuck with, but neither does he want to articulate society's problems, nor does his music intertwine with his life in any significant way, which are two fundamental aspects to the man Tupac Shakur, and therefore, the question can hardly be fully answered.

That said, I do think Jay-Z is better at doing what he does than Pac, but he does something significantly different. Which kind of hiphop and subject matter appeals more to whom is a rather personal thing.

ok, I can understand your arguments. But if you use stylistic devices (punchlines, etc) doesn't mean you're a good songwriter. To me, CONTENT is more important for good songwriting, style comes second. Crooked I is also very skilled, but is he a good songwriter? Obviously not, since he isn't able to write songs that you could put on an album. I think good songwriting is when your songs are meaningful, have a message , people can associate etc... I see the skills you described more as "street rapper skills"
You can write that Pac's songs are contradicting/simple, but most of them are meaningful. And I can't say the same to jay's songs. He may have some songs which are substantial, but he always has to show how "cool" and rich he is, and I think he sounds to arrogant and egomaniac on his songs. And this part is usually dominant in his songs.
Of course, "you can define good songwriting skills" different, for example if you are able to write songs that are mass appealing, but my definition of songwriting is different.

I see your point, but I'll have to respectfully disagree here. The way I see it, you're reducing "good songwriting" to a core element of a specific type of songwriting (the deliver-a-message songwriting), leaving out the rest. I think, for example, that the best songwriting I've ever seen/heard is that of Bob Dylan around '65-'67...those are all songs that have no "message" in a classical sense, yet that is part of what makes them some of the most meaningful poetry of the 20th century. It's hard to get that across if you don't listen to Dylan, but what I'm basically saying is that it is not at all an inherent quality to good poetry or good songwriting to contain a message and that reversely, the fact something contains a message which might be totally right doesn't make that a great lyric per se. See, if I deliver you the following lines:

"Robert Mugabe's hunger for dictatorial power has left Zimbabwe in turmoil
The on-going war in Iraq is influenced by the international conquest for oil
Burma's militant government has spilled a lot of blood on its soil
And in Darfur, kids barely have anything to drink and in the desert, the water boils"

...I got four pretty important political subjects in four lines and I obviously deliver the message that things are kinda fucked up in some parts of the world. Yet, I definitely wouldn't pride myself on just having come up with good songwriting. All I've done is make a few shallow references to complex issues and insert a few cheap rhymes; and this is why I do indeed consider "stylistic devices" essential to good songwriting, because lyricism is a structural device in itself. If you want to analyze subject matter in a classical sense, you use prose and write an essay or a book, which allows you to get a differentiated look at things. And hence, if you choose to write lyrics, you do something that couldn't be done a lot better writing an essay. Great poetry could never be captured in prose - most of Pac's lyrics couls. And really, nobody would get away summing Pac's points up in a paper at college, because they're way too simple. The fact that he said things that might be considered important over a beat and flowed it nicely with that great voice of his might make him a good entertainer, but not a good lyricist. That's how I see it.

[187_gangsta_crip]

HELL no! Pac is hands down the greatest songwriter that hip hop has ever seen noone will ever come close to him.

[Turf Hitta]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

Reasonable Doubt > any Pac album. But yes, it's all opinions.

Maybe if you're fuckin gay or something.

[Kill]

In order to even have a discussion, Jay Z would have to have made a better song than Pac.

Reasonable Doubt > any Pac album. But yes, it's all opinions.

Maybe if you're fuckin gay or something.

Right. I state my personal opinion, saying I like Jigga's widely acclaimed album more than your hero 2Pac's widely acclaimed albums. And over that innocuous statement, you catch feelings and throw the lamest insult even the internet knows at me...try again Stan