Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Buddist thinkers (7even): I want a respectable debate
Chief:
you're such a dickhead infinite.
Australian Bastard:
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 04, 2008, 10:18:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: ...thus spaketh Overfiend on August 04, 2008, 09:12:02 PM ---
Please don't say you've already studied or looked into Buddhism until you have already done so, I myself have read Sufi poetry and other stuff that is similar, but it would be ignorant for me to just disregard everything else similar based upon that similarity without looking at it myself, as it would be for you too.
--- End quote ---
But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism) instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it. And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists. But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.
--- End quote ---
I feel you should because you're ideas of Buddhism are filled with some wrong assumptions about the faith. Assumptions that could be cleared and I probably would not have to dispel them for you if you just did the knowledge for yourself. If I wanted to learn about Islam for instance, I wouldn't go on the internet and debate with people who call themself Muslims (not that you shouldn't but you should do some knowledge for yourself first), I would read Islamic scriptures myself beforehand. I could say i've read Christian and Jewish literature and that I don't have to look at Islamic literature because Islam is a composite of various facets of those other faiths...but of course that would be an ignorant assumption wouldn't it now? I myself would not feel I would be doing any area of knowledge any justice without studying it myself so I wouldn't have to throw misplaced assumptions at people and let's face it nobody likes that. But anyway for the record; I don't mind debating with you and I think you mostly are a dope poster, I'm just saying, ya know, do the knowledge for yourself first.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-Buddha.
...only after observation and analysis, when you find that everything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
-Buddha.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 04, 2008, 10:18:08 PM ---
Most of the rest of your post was detailing how the "good life" consists of carrying a pure mind and heart. And that if actions are done with good intention and pure mind then the results are will be good.
But this is simply not true. There is a natural cause and effect relationship between our actions and their consequences regardless of whether or not they are done with a pure and clean mind or a perverted mind. To deny the natural consequences that exist resulting from our actions is a recipe for dissapointment.
Let me give you and example. You may befriend me as a gesture done with a pure and clean mind with love in your heart for my general well-being. Yet, severely bad consequences could result. I may take advantage of you, and demand you to do many things on my behalf, which distracts you from giving time and energy to the people who really do love and care for you and would not harm you but rather bring benefit to your life. And in the end I am ungrateful of your help and both you and I suffer bad consequences for your supposedly "pure" actions.
--- End quote ---
Buddha said;
"Friendship is the only cure for hatred,
the only guarantee of peace."
and
"Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared."
But, Buddha also said;
"He who loves 50 people has 50 woes; he who loves no one has no woes."
So...the Buddha is saying how kindness brings empathy with others but also woe and often shared suffering with other's suffering.
The Dhammapda teaches that kindness (metta) needs to be balanced with wisdom (panna) when living among others. Otherwise one may find one's kindness being taken advantage of and abused leading one to great suffering (dukkha).
Buddha learnt this the hard way, the story goes, after living through different extremes.
Buddhism is not a blind religion, it is science of the mind (refer back to that part of the Dhammapda on the mind, its actually the first verse of the Dhamapada). Its very much a seeing religion, being able to see and understand (panna) things with one's own eye of wisdom (the unpolluted mind), where one reflects on the situations, problems and issues encountered with a clear mind and then formulates a skillful response.
Let us first cultivate adequate wisdom and loving kindness within ourselves so we can convert evil minds to saintly minds.
-Buddhist Monk Henepola Gunaratna.
Australian Bastard:
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 04, 2008, 10:18:08 PM ---[But as I said above, I have "practiced" the idealogy and way that you are advocating and expressing... only under a different name... it was called "sufism" (or also I intensely studied and practiced James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy series and he admittedly borrows from Buddism) instead of "Buddism" but all the ideas and practices you are expressing were contained within it. And no, I'm not talking about reading a few Rumi poems (as your sticman caricature of me assumes)... but rather I travelled and studied with an Islamic group called the Jammat Tabligh and so many of their ideas and practices paralell everything your saying only they have some additional and minor differences like beards and dress like the prophet Muhammad's "sunnah" rather than the shaved heads of the Buddists. But all the principles of piety, humility, content, finding the beauty in your suffering, your search for truth and insight, looking inward, self-denail and so on and so forth are present in much the same way.
--- End quote ---
Well im not from the Islamic group called whateverthefuck (as your stickman caricature of Buddhism assumed). Thats your assumptions again. You know that bigotted people always assume shit about other people?
I could also be ignorant and say 'I've seen Muslims on TV and basically all the ideas and practices that Osama bin Laden preaches is the same as what all Muslims believe and although not all Muslims have beards, basically all the principles of 'slavedom to a mystery god and promises of sexual rewards in the afterlife having taken the life of an infidel and so on and so forth are present in much the way.'
Do the knowledge son, before you do the wisdom. If you want to learn about anything in life, study it for yourself first, don't go through life resting upon generalisations gained from other human-beings.
A fool who recognises his own ignorance is thereby in fact a wise man, but a
fool who considers himself wise -- that is what one really calls a fool.
-Gautama Buddha
***
"finding the beauty in your suffering"
I don't really see it that way,
Id say;
"find wisdom and understanding in your suffering".
Hell is not punishment, it's training.
-Shunryu Suzuki
TraceOneInfinite:
For the third time, let me again explain the my reason for making this thread was not to "learn" Buddism. So please stop telling me to go and read and study for myself and so on and so forth. I understand that you don't consider my previous studies in Sufism or James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy or Buddism itself to be sufficient, but right now, I have niether the time or money to go spend 40 years as a Tibetan monk just so I can have permission to debate with you.
A debate is usually two opposing viewpoints, if I already agreed with you then there would be no debate, too much agreement kills a chat.
And then you called me a bigot for supposedly "assuming" you were "from Islamic group whateverthefuck". Which I obviously never did.
Now... on to the part where you actually did a decent job of debating me rather than just calling me a bigot and telling me to go read for myself......
You offered quotes saying something to the effect of..."hell is a training" and "we are shaped by our thoughts, and with a pure mind joy follows".
But that is only a half-truth and half the equation. We have to get the things "on the outside" that bring us happiness "inside our minds". For example, if the Budda craves solitude and meditation then he has to be in the right environment "on the outside" to get the positive results he experiences "on the inside". Maybe he needs a peaceful and quiet place for meditation. Or maybe the Buddah is so incredible he could be in a blazing hellfire with Rob Zombie music playing at high volumes and still be "training" and in peaceful meditation.
But still, the origional point remains. There is one environment which is MORE SUITABLE for meditation, or else monastaries would be in crowded streets rather than quiet meadows.
Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".
So actually, we are shaped by a combination of our mind and our environment. Buddah had to experience the things "on the outside" that led to his "innerstate of well-being".
On Friendship- The Buddah claims that a thousand candles can be lit from a single candle and that that candle is never diminished. That sounds very nice...
But unfortunately for master Buddah we are not candles, we are people with limited time and resources. Money is a resource just as time is a resource. Our money and time in this life is limited.
So just as you go to the grocery store and pick out the cereal you like most to spend your limited money on... you also pick out the people that would benefit you most to spend your limited time on. There is one cereal that you enjoy more than the others and there are some people who you would enjoy more as a friend than the other. To say they are all the same and that, like a candle, you will not be diminished in the least by wasting your limited time on harmful people, is foolish.
But I guess it's okay, as long as you use wisdom? Well, why befriend harmful people at all in the first place? Why even waste your time? Why waste our time "training" and "converting evil mind" when we could simply let ourselves go and enjoy the company of people we like?
Maybe Buddah enjoyed suffering and "converting evil minds"... maybe it gave him a great sense of confidence and well-being. Then that is well and good for him. But I wouldn't want him as a friend. I wouldn't want a friend who was spending his limited time and resources "converting evil minds". How would such a person have much time left to give to someone like me, who doesn't have an evil mind?
Australian Bastard:
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 06, 2008, 06:39:24 PM ---I understand that you don't consider my previous studies in Sufism or James Redfield's Celestine Prophecy or Buddism itself to be sufficient, but right now, I have niether the time or money to go spend 40 years as a Tibetan monk just so I can have permission to debate with you.
--- End quote ---
So now you are saying you have studied Buddhism? I don't entirely believe that... and this Jamaat group sounds closer to Hinduism than Buddhism. There is a difference, I'll explain.
Also, what makes you think you need to spend 40 years as a Monk or even money just to teach yourself about Buddhism? You have a brain that you have access to much of your waking consciouness!
I lve in the real world aswell man, I have a job and I study full time and I gotta make that paper paper, but I still have a mind to contemplate life, as do you.
Anyway as I said, you are asking questions that could easily be answered by yourself if you looked into it yourself. But as I said, I don't mind debating and this debate with you has actually spurred me into reading more Buddhist literature. But I hope you do take on board what I've said about studying for youself, because also if you noticed what Buddha said on that;
independent analysis and contemplation is a tenant of Buddhism.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 06, 2008, 06:39:24 PM ---You offered quotes saying something to the effect of..."hell is a training" and "we are shaped by our thoughts, and with a pure mind joy follows".
But that is only a half-truth and half the equation. We have to get the things "on the outside" that bring us happiness "inside our minds". For example, if the Budda craves solitude and meditation then he has to be in the right environment "on the outside" to get the positive results he experiences "on the inside". Maybe he needs a peaceful and quiet place for meditation. Or maybe the Buddah is so incredible he could be in a blazing hellfire with Rob Zombie music playing at high volumes and still be "training" and in peaceful meditation.
But still, the origional point remains. There is one environment which is MORE SUITABLE for meditation, or else monastaries would be in crowded streets rather than quiet meadows.
Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".
So actually, we are shaped by a combination of our mind and our environment. Buddah had to experience the things "on the outside" that led to his "innerstate of well-being".
--- End quote ---
Well as a matter of fact yes. Meditation has been recognised by science to actually work, my psychology teacher put me up on this. Of course in Tibet and around the world there are stories and testimonial accounts of people who say they've seen monks float and move things, sit and meditate within fire, astral travel, clairvoyancy, telekinesis, telepathy, the list goes on. But those monks probably have spent decades in states of meditation. But anyway, considering more short-term results, scientifically meditation does a range of things for people and their brains.
There are definite psychological benefits. But also they are starting to find (scientifically find that is, because Buddhists have known for themself the benefits of meditation for hundreds of years) that there are a huge range of physical changes that occur in the brain due to meditiation.
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030424-000003.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051110215950.htm
Anyway, science aside, I agree a stable environment as opposed to 'hellfire' would be more suitable for meditation.
However, Buddhism maintains that the physical world is capable of being transcended and a Buddhist monk has been known to casually meditate in fire but that was as protest (and the Dalai Lama asked for the monks not to let it become a trend) because that would be the end of the physical body. Having achieved meditative states and control of their Chi, Shaolin monks are able to withstand and pass the barriers of pain. Now these people, it is because they have a state of peace that is on the inside that they are capable of engaging in physical hells on the outside.
Basically, Buddhism says that this SUITABLE ENVIRONMENT is for the benefit of the BODY and also MIND; it is so the body can relax easier with a stable environment and allow the mind to stop worrying about the body so much so the mind can be free to meditate. That is the difference, body and mind are same but both have seperate functions.
--- Quote from: Abdul-Infinite on August 06, 2008, 06:39:24 PM ---
Therefore, the point has to be recognized, that it is two fold, you have to get desirable circumstances "on the outside" to experience greater mental well-being "on the inside".
--- End quote ---
Yes I agree totally. Have you read the story of Buddha? This is why I was saying your questions and statements are assumptions. You take one thing that Buddha and I say and over-generalise it and you make the assumption that it stands as an absolute truth within Buddhism because you have not done the knowledge for yourself and so you don't know the context of that quote. Nobody on this earth likes that. People do that about Islam and they get called bigots and infidels. Thats the point I'm trying to get you to see man. Anyway despite that, you are a thinker and you've reached a conclusion that Buddha also did.
The story goes Buddha renounced his princely status to take on the life and practice of denial of the body and the world for many many years as the ascetics in India did at the time and nearly killed himself in the process to no benefit of his mind either........
...the story goes on but there are stories about it that tell it much better than I could and I haven't even had breakfast goddamit! Promised land calling me man...
Anyway, the Dhammapada is called the Middle Way for a reason and Buddhism dosn't condone those extremes you have been implying.
Heres a synopsis of the Dhammapada:
The Dhammapada, which literally means "foot," "tool," ,"saying," or "path" (Pali: pada) of "experience" (Pali: dhamma), is a small collection of sayings about the Middle Way, the Path of Awakening which leads to Nirvana and which is embodied by the Buddha, and also about its opposite, the path of unskillful living which leads to a hellish life and which is embodied by the traditional Indian figure of Mara.
Each of us must choose which of these two paths to follow. We cannot avoid choosing: even if we do not choose, we will become subject to forces outside ourselves (media, advertisement, family, friends, enemies, lovers), and so will have chosen the path of unskillful living by default. Only by consciously choosing the Path of Awakening, and by training our minds so that everything we do is free of unhealthy desire, aversion, and delusion, can we be truly enlightened and happy.
The Dhammapada gives voice to the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism: that suffering exists, that there is a cause to suffering, that suffering has an end, and that there is a means to this end, namely the Noble Eightfold Path. But the Dhammapada focuses mostly on the Noble Eightfold Path, and specifically on the choices we face, at many junctures in our lives, between two starkly contrasting possibilities. It is a message of hope that if we choose wisely, and if we choose now rather than later, we shall find relief for both our own suffering and the suffering of others.
***
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version