Lifestyle > Train of Thought
So anybody else find it shocking that Obama basically took over GM?
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 03, 2009, 02:42:19 AM ---
First of all, notice you didn't dispute any of the corporate infringements on individual rights I pointed to. Plus, you once again tried to justify government intervention by saying "you can't blame these CEO's for wanting to befriend the government". "Befriend" is not the most accurate term, try "influence". There's a good study on the mechanics of this. Just look up Thomas Ferguson's "Golden Rule: The Investment Theory of Parties and the Logic of Money Driven Politics", at the local library.
Second of all, I didn't offer an "explanation of the history of capitalism". Instead, I gave a general outline of the evolution of corporate law. If you want to dispute it-you appear to think it's "nonsense"- you might want to write a critique on the excellent series of studies called "The Transformation of American Law" by this guy from Harvard named Morton J. Horwitz, cause that's where I got it from.
Third of all, you seem to think you're living under capitalism, where there is competition and free markets. You'll notice I referred earlier to Adam Smith, who provided the intellectual foundation for free markets and capitalism. I said he would be disgusted by the current shape of the system. The reason I said this-and this should be obvious to anyone who hasn't lost touch with reality-is that free markets and competition don't really exist in systems like the U.S, where the leading players rely on huge government subsidies, as well as other practices (the ones I mentioned earlier) that are designed to undermine markets. There may exist some limited degree of competition between the few bodies receiving huge government subsidies, but this is oligopoly, not what Adam Smith had in mind in "The Wealth of Nations".
--- End quote ---
Your acting as if I consider America in 2009 to be a great and shining example of capitalism and the free market. Which I don't. And no matter how many times I say I am against corporatism (which consists of businesses using government to strengthen their position in the market) or government interference in the market; you still keep saying the same damn thing over and over.
This discussion has taken a wrong term, because you stopped acknowledging what I was really saying, and just started arguing against America's current state of corporatism; which I already disagree with.
I TO DA GEEZY:
If you disagree with "America's current state of corporatism", explain why " you can't blame these CEO's for wanting to befriend the government"?(my emphasis).In your answer remember to address the fact corporatism means, as you said, "businesses using government to strengthen their position in the market".
Secondly, I didn't claim you "consider America in 2009 to be a great and shining example of capitalism and the free market". Instead, I was commenting on your statement that "There is capitalism everywhere and at everytime in your life". And I pointed out that if the intellectual foundation of capitalism matters, then capitalism doesn't really exist in the US. To borrow your words, capitalism is not "everywhere and at every time".
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 04, 2009, 10:20:18 AM ---If you disagree with "America's current state of corporatism", explain why " you can't blame these CEO's for wanting to befriend the government"?(my emphasis).In your answer remember to address the fact corporatism means, as you said, "businesses using government to strengthen their position in the market".
Secondly, I didn't claim you "consider America in 2009 to be a great and shining example of capitalism and the free market". Instead, I was commenting on your statement that "There is capitalism everywhere and at everytime in your life". And I pointed out that if the intellectual foundation of capitalism matters, then capitalism doesn't really exist in the US. To borrow your words, capitalism is not "everywhere and at every time".
--- End quote ---
Yes my friend, capitalism is everywhere at every time, there is no way around that. Once again, I will break it down into simpler terms for you, so that you can get out of your Noam Chomsky socialist utopia fantasy world; and allow me to present you the world as it really exists....
Capitalism is everywhere at every time in everything we do.
-When you woke up this morning, you went to brush your teeth. The toothpaste you used was the one that you felt best fit your needs, whether it was an affordable price of toothpaste, the store being close to your home, or the right brand. You went out into the free-market and chose which brand of toothpaste you use. Various toothpaste companies competed for you dollars, and local shops worked to help supply you with what you needed.
-You took a shit on the toilet. The toilet company struck a deal with your apartment complex or home to provide toilets in your area. They competed with other toilet companies to provide your biulding owners with what they needed at the most affordable price in comparison to other toilet companies in the market.
-Your girlfriend Z, who is in your home, I imagine. Was the best out of all the other alternatives made available. You could of had other women, but you chose her over the others, because she provides you with what you want in a relationship; you were in a free market and able to choose the woman you liked so long as you agreed to provide her in return with the companionship she also desired.
....I could go on forever but I hope you get the point.
Now, you say, how is capitalism and free market everywhere, because in America you said it's not a good example, and look at all the corporatism, and so on...?
Good question. You see, that my friend is the THIEF. And the thief also exists. When you were in elementary school you had to guard against him beating you up and taking your lunch money. In the adult world you have to guard against him stealing your money in taxes or burdening you with regulations. In it's various forms it is still the THIEF.
So... to be more clear, let me rephrase what I said above... Capitalism exists everywhere and in every place AND THE THIEF ALSO EXISTS.
I TO DA GEEZY:
Although I am duly impressed with your storytelling skills, I'm afraid the criteria for capitalism lie elsewhere. Sure, in some areas of your life you can find instances of competition, few would doubt that. The question is whether the competition is ubiquitous, whether it exists everywhere, within the system. Now, in systems like ours, we have state subsidized corporations, we have propaganda-advertising and P.R - which is intended to undermine markets. That means competition is not ubiquitous, it's highly localized, as is wealth. Capitalism, in the Adam Smith sense, means market competition under conditions of perfect freedom, conditions which are absent from our societies, if only for the government intervention in favor of big business. I can see you have some problem with Chomsky, but I'm not quoting Chomsky, I'm relying on the intellectual foundation of capitalism.
And again, if u're opposed to corporatism, why can't we blame the CEOs seeking government intervention?
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 04, 2009, 11:03:00 AM ---
Now, in systems like ours, we have state subsidized corporations, we have propaganda-advertising and P.R - which is intended to undermine markets.
--- End quote ---
Subsidies are the examples of the THIEF, as mentioned in the analogy in my previous post. They are just another form of the bully in grade school who beat you up and stole your lunch money.
However, propaganda advertising is a different case. It is not the thief. Because to consider it the thief would be to disregard personal responsibility. You were stupid enough to be fooled by the propaganda. It was ultimately your choice. So it's kind of like the girl in your 4th grade classroom that you wrote love letters to everyday, and then later you found out she was letting all the other students read and laugh those letters and you became the class joke. So you wasted your time, but it was your fault for believing she was sincere in the first place. But hey, that's the risk you take for love.
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 04, 2009, 11:03:00 AM ---
That means competition is not ubiquitous, it's highly localized, as is wealth.
--- End quote ---
So what... it's impossible to make everyone equal. Just like Beyonce is sexier than the Lady of Rage.
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 04, 2009, 11:03:00 AM ---
Capitalism, in the Adam Smith sense, means market competition under conditions of perfect freedom, conditions which are absent from our societies, if only for the government intervention in favor of big business. I can see you have some problem with Chomsky, but I'm not quoting Chomsky, I'm relying on the intellectual foundation of capitalism.
--- End quote ---
Yes, because Adam Smith is describing capatalism at it's best. But just because the thief exists, doesn't mean that capitalism no longer exists. Capatalism is still there, it just does not thrive as much as it could otherwise. Just because the Thief is there beating you up and taking you lunch money, doesn't mean you die and never get to eat. Some days he beats up another kid and leaves you alone.
By the way, I like Chomsky as a person and a human being; but he's a dreamer and not looking at reality. But then again, alot of people I love are dreamers and not looking at reality. I can't blame them, because much of reality looks like shit.
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on April 04, 2009, 11:03:00 AM ---
And again, if u're opposed to corporatism, why can't we blame the CEOs seeking government intervention?
--- End quote ---
You can blame them if you want, on principal. But to seek is one thing; it's another thing to actually do. If I seek to want to rule the whole world with an iron fist that's not a big deal. But if Obama hands me over the nuclear trigger, well then now you got a problem. The point being, it is the government which makes big business dangerous; they are not dangerous on their own, because you don't have to work for them and you don't have to buy from them.
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