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John Barry just said...
Chamillitary Click:
for the record...
Ruth >>> Mays; Willy just had a better glove.
Ruth could pitch & hit; best combination ever lol.
.:DaYg0sTyLz:.:
--- Quote from: Now_I_Know on June 21, 2009, 02:17:35 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 20, 2009, 10:09:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 20, 2009, 09:30:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 19, 2009, 10:51:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 19, 2009, 10:28:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 19, 2009, 03:13:21 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chamillitary Click on June 19, 2009, 03:00:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Styles1 on June 19, 2009, 02:45:25 PM ---Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
--- End quote ---
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
--- End quote ---
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
--- End quote ---
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
--- End quote ---
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
--- End quote ---
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
--- Quote from: GET YOUR WALK ON on June 19, 2009, 10:31:58 PM ---wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
--- End quote ---
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
--- End quote ---
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
--- End quote ---
wow...notice how Daygo starts soundin like me when it works for his argument. "Babe Ruth was a bigger icon because of the media, but Mays was still better skillwise"...hmmmmmmm, sound familiar?....what a punk lol.
--- End quote ---
How stupid are you? Yeah because the media and fans nowadays are racist against Kobe but not MJ lol. If you think an African-American baseball player back then would receive the same love and respect from fans and media as the "Great Bambino" youre fuckin retarded lol.
Shallow:
You're talking like they played at the same time. Ruth was retired for 16 years before Mays even came into the majors. I'll admit, if Ruth was black and Satchell Paige was white then maybe the Great Bambino would have been Paige, because if had played in the majors in his prime Paige may have been better all around. I don't know for sure and we can never really know. But if Mays was white he would have been Mickey Mantle big, but Babe Ruth big is a different story.
I'll also admit that if Babe couldn't pitch you'd have a case for Willie because of his fielding, but as a batter Ruth had 2,500 less at bats yet hit 50 more homeruns, 300 more RBIs, and only 20 less doubles, and 4 less triples. And he had a .342 BA to Willie's .302 BA. A .474 OBP to Willie's .384, and an increbile .690 slugging percentage to compared to 557. Give the Babe those 2,500 at bats that Mays had and his numbers would be ridiculously out of reach for any player past, present, and most forseeable future.
The only offensive stat Willie was obviously better at was stealing bases. Everything else gets complete eclipsed by the Babe when you look at per at bat. It's not even close.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Now_I_Know on June 21, 2009, 02:19:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 20, 2009, 11:06:29 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 20, 2009, 10:25:46 AM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 20, 2009, 10:09:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 20, 2009, 09:30:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 19, 2009, 10:51:51 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on June 19, 2009, 10:28:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: .:DaYg0sTyLz:. on June 19, 2009, 03:13:21 PM ---
--- Quote from: Chamillitary Click on June 19, 2009, 03:00:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Styles1 on June 19, 2009, 02:45:25 PM ---Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
--- End quote ---
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
--- End quote ---
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
--- End quote ---
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
--- End quote ---
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
--- End quote ---
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
--- Quote from: GET YOUR WALK ON on June 19, 2009, 10:31:58 PM ---wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
--- End quote ---
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
--- End quote ---
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
--- End quote ---
Fuck popularity. Mays never had the numbers. He simply wsn't a better hitter, and where he passes Bave in baserunning and fielding he doesn't even come close in pitching. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is that Babe was the calibre of pitcher that he was. He had two years that would have given him CY Young awarsd in today's game. In 1918 he had 13 wins as a pitcher and lead the league in HRs batting a 300. In his two full years asa pitcher he had a 1.75 era and a and 2.01 ERA. Roger Celems only pitched under 2.0 twice in his long career and never had anything lower at pace with 1.75. Clemens has also never matched Babe's 9 shut out games. Nolan Ryan only did it once.
You put babe Ruth one on one with Willie Mays and Ruth would destroy him.
The only other guy in the conversation is Ty Cobb, but he was such an asshole of a human being history likes to forget about him. Just look at the numbers and see how much better Ruth was than Mays. You can argue Magic over Jordan a lot easier than you can argue Mays over Ruth.
--- End quote ---
doesnt ESPN have Mays ranked as #2 all time? lol. And NOBODY argues Magic > Jordan LOL!! Other then Laker fans. Magic himself said MJ is on another level.
--- End quote ---
LOLLL...riiiightttt. thats why many still consider Magic the GOAT? even Dennis Rodman said he thought Magic was better, and he played with MJ. man up.
--- End quote ---
What's funny is when the Bulls signed Rodman, in the Rodman movie, he claimed they try to sell him on playing with the greatest player ever, and Rodman said, you signed Magic Johnson... lol. At that time though, Magic had more titles and he had tons of triple doubles were as Jordan was seen mainly as a scorer, and when he did actually passed people were surprised... see the first 3 peat period. Up until the 95-96 season, it was not a clear cut vote, and people mainly argued Magic with Wilt and Russell getting lots of attention too. It all changes though once you do something to prove greatness.
Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
Just for fun, it's all about eras, this is Jordan's Bulls against the Magics Lakers in 84, I think it's games like this that made Jordan great. Clearly this was the Showtime era as Mike would not get on top for another 6 years.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fZ5j2M70uro&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01
Now lets see what happens in the height of the Michael era when Magic comes back
http://www.youtube.com/v/VrpUbY_iYqw&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on June 21, 2009, 10:47:17 PM ---
Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
--- End quote ---
Mays may have been a better athlete but doesn't the fact that he couldn't pitch put him behind Ruth? And people seem to only remember the fat, out of shape 30s Ruth. He was a rock solid outdielder in the 20s. The guy was no DH by today's standards. I know the whole no black pitchers argument is used a lot with his numbers, but I could count the number of black pitchers Mays had to face on one hand.
Of course if we're talking all around we got to bring Cobb into the argument. The redords he had for the time he had them, entirely in the deal ball era, really truly are a great feat. But Baseball wants to forget him. Everytime someone bats over 400 mid season everyone talks about Williams for having that one 400 year season. Cobb had three 400 year seasons, could play anywhere on the field, and is still top 5 in most major categories. And despite the hatred he did get more votes than Ruth and anyone else for the Hall of Fame.
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