Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Israel's Impunity
TraceOneInfinite:
Excellent discussion, especially the back and forth between Islaminevetable and Illuminati Clique....
....I want to copy and paste and speak on a few of the things mentioned..
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 19, 2009, 09:46:16 PM ---^I've heard that arguement before how when the Muslim Empire was around (the Ottomons? the Caliph?) they were accepting of other religions living in their territory. The catch is, yes other religions were allowed to live in Islamic lands, but they had to pay more tax, a special tax that was levied onto unbelievers living in Islamic lands. Also other rules like if a Church was next to a Mosque and the Church was in need of maintenance the Christians were not allowed to maintain it or repair the Church so it had to be left to slide into disrepair. In this regard, adherents to other religious faiths were kinda second class citizens. Also, if you were not a Muslim but living in an Islamic country, then Islamic law would not apply to you, neither the punishments but also neither the rights. It was all a far cry from Western secular government today, or even modern authoritarian Islamic government today. But word, over the Inquisition, the Jews wouldve had it safer in Islamic lands.
--- End quote ---
This is actually a valid point to make, and I think it was correctly stated. I may be a Muslim, but a very unorthodox one. For example I can not support the Shariah (Islamic Law as worked out by the 9th century Imams and as understood by Sunni scholars today) for many reasons...
...One reason I can't be down with Shariah is because of what you stated above. They want to say that there is freedom of religion according to Shariah Law yet there is not. Because a Muslim can apostate, and as you mentioned Christians can not repair old churches or biuld new ones. Also, the only recognized religions in Shariah law are the 3 Abrahamic faiths of Islam, Judaism and Christianity; therefore atheists, Hindu's, Buddists, etc. often have their rights unprotected under Shariah law.
What is the point of worship if it is forced? This renders religion and all acts as meaningless if it is forced upon the people. This is one of my big problems with the Shariah as it was developed in the 9th Century by the 4 Major Sunni Islamic Scholars. Much of what they legislated comes from Hadith and contradicts the Qu'ran itself! ...read these verses from the Qu'ran and it is clear Shariah contradicts...
There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient. 2:256
"Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers." 10:99.
Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny! 18:29
Say, "I do not ask you for any money. All I seek is to help you find the right path to your Lord, if this is what you choose." 25:57
This is a reminder; whoever wills, let him choose the path to his Lord. 73:19
For those among you who wish to advance, or regress. 74:37
This is a reminder: whoever wills shall choose the path to his Lord. 76:29
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 20, 2009, 08:02:56 PM ---
For instance, in the West, we have laws on anti-discrimination, etc. These laws can't bring about the total end of discrimination or prejudice, but we can at least take it so far; so that people of all races, colours and creeds can, to an extent live together with some dignity, self-determination and peace.
--- End quote ---
This can be a topic for another day, but why do we need anti-discrimination laws? You could just say that we should be punished for the harm we do to other people and be done with it.
You don't have to force affirmative action for minorities to be successful. Look at the great success Jews, Arabs, Asians, etc. have had in the West. They stick together and pool their resources and spend within the community and therefore they become successful even more quickly then whites in many cases.
Most anti-discriminatory laws only had to take place because of previous laws that endorsed discrimination; such as slavery and Jim Crow laws.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: LIGHTS on August 22, 2009, 11:41:27 AM ---ITS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHERE IF YOU ARE BORN THERE YOU STILL ARE NOT CONSIDERED A CITIZEN UNLESS YOU'RE A JEW
-----
YOU'RE BORN IN US... YOUR A US CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...
YOU'RE BORN IN SUADI ARABIA...YOUR A SAUDI CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...
YOU'RE BORN IN JAPAN...YOUR A SAUDI CITIZEN DISREGARDS TO UR RELIGION...
--- End quote ---
Word. Good point. I can't believe the world accepts this in today's time. A law so discriminatory that unless if you are a non-Jew born in Israel you are not a citizen. Straight up bullshit!!
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 23, 2009, 05:23:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: IslamInevitable on August 23, 2009, 03:25:24 PM ---ITS A PARADOX THEY CALL REALITY
NON RELIGION IS A RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU CONGREGATE AND ASSOCIATE WITH EACH OTHER ON THIS ESPOUSED BASIS
--- End quote ---
Which not many people actually do mind you. Rather, people who don't profess to any established religion get together for all manner of reasons that involve the actual living of life.
The issue is not someone's belief, rather their degree of objectivity, tolerance and humility in the face of actually knowing nothing.
Most religions, including Islam, believe God is knowable, but also vastly unknown.
Nothing. Everything.
In this sense, maybe you can understand something of aethism and secularism.
--- End quote ---
Very interesting exchange between the two of you right here.
I agree with brother Islaminevitable that the world has a very limited view of what constitutes "religion". Because in Islam we translate religion to mean "way of life". Therefore, the average American who works and watches football with his buddies and goes drinking at a bar every weekend is practicing his own religion. The bar is like the alter upon which he worships, the local football team he projects his hopes, frustrations, judgments, the coach is like a Preacher or Imam... local team good/ far away team bad.. national anthem before every game, local country good, far away country bad... and he does his work to maintain this lifestyle. There are many parallels that can be made. So in this way I agree with my dear brother Islaminevitable.
However, I also agree with Illuminati Clique and I think he makes an excellent point, in focusing on not the religion, but rather the role of subjectivity which leads to intolerance and potentially genocide of an opposing religion or race.
The Overfiend:
--- Quote from: Infinite... the cognitive dissonance theory on August 24, 2009, 12:14:19 AM ---
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on August 20, 2009, 08:02:56 PM ---
For instance, in the West, we have laws on anti-discrimination, etc. These laws can't bring about the total end of discrimination or prejudice, but we can at least take it so far; so that people of all races, colours and creeds can, to an extent live together with some dignity, self-determination and peace.
--- End quote ---
This can be a topic for another day, but why do we need anti-discrimination laws? You could just say that we should be punished for the harm we do to other people and be done with it.
You don't have to force affirmative action for minorities to be successful. Look at the great success Jews, Arabs, Asians, etc. have had in the West. They stick together and pool their resources and spend within the community and therefore they become successful even more quickly then whites in many cases.
Most anti-discriminatory laws only had to take place because of previous laws that endorsed discrimination; such as slavery and Jim Crow laws.
--- End quote ---
Of course we need non-discriminatory laws, people have needed law since the days of Solomon. Sure we can simply say, "lets just punish people for the wrong they commit to others" but then of course you have to define what is a wrong! We need to define 'harm', because whats the point in punishing that person if the wrong wasn't defined or if he had no knowledge that such a wrong was a wrong. There are really two types of law: Natural law (informed by religious and spiritual values, personal values, ethics, philosophy and norms, etc) and then there is the law of the State.
Slavery became a crime when the State (aka the Leviathan) made it legally a crime.
Theres a reason for affirmative action aka positive discrimination, because lets say we make the law equal. That is, make the law non-discriminatory, because remember back in ye old times it was discriminatory and in some places it still is. Now lets say we make the law equal, however it would do nothing but preserve the status-quo: because just simply practising equality, will not necessarily result in equality. If two people start off in incomparable situations, treating them similarly will merely perpetuate this, , furthur accentuating the differences. Anyway, word, this is getting into a different topic, but the reason I raised it was that, IslamInevitable said that we can never have total objectivity, as we can never be totally separated from our prejudices, I agreed, but cited anti-discrimination law as an example of where objectivity (and the law is supposed to be objective) can take us so far and all that is needed is for us to take it so far so that people can, to a degree, live together and co-exist.
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