Lifestyle > Train of Thought
100,000+ protesting in Copenhagen?
The Overfiend:
We don't know how much CO2 is too much.
But it has not been this high for 800,000 years, (as of March, 2009 carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere is at a concentration of 387 ppm by volume). Now couple that with deforestation, and think about it, so the usual absorbers of CO2 are diminished. And also you are looking at temperature from just a few places, like Italy, not the overall Earth temperature.
Yes us humans are responsible for the burning of fossil fuels, therefore people are held to be largely responsible for the increase in carbon dioxide. 9.1 billion metric tons of CO2 is produced a year-from that 5 billion metric tons is absorbed by plants that absorb 30% of that 5 billion, rocks absorb less than 1% of that 5 billion and 25% is absorbed by the ocean and 45% goes into the atmosphere and eventually into space. So there is a remaining 4.1 billion metric tons left here on the Earth and in the atmosphere with us every-year. Now consider one of the things CO2 does: it reradiates some but not all heat back down to the Earth, which is all good, but there is more of it than usual, and increasing, therefore more CO2 means the more that process will occur.
This is how I understand it.
The oldest air bubbles ever found in Antarctic ice show that CO2 has not been this high for 800,000 years, but maybe even for millions of years. The highest ice core reading of CO2 ever found was 299 parts per million around 333,000 years ago (remember in 2008 it was 385ppm). CO2 levels are estimated to reach 450 ppm before 2050.
virtuoso:
I understand the deforestation perspective, but I am simply pointing out there isn't a direct correlation between carbon dioxide and temperature as those examples illustrate. Also what we must consider is that there is no comprehensive answer to any of these questions, they are basing their trend on the last 150 years, which is a very short period of time to use to then say oh this will definitely happen, or that will definitely happen. The scientific predictions are ever changing, the leading voices have been expressing a polar opposite view only 30 years ago with predictions of polar bear being found in scotland by 2000. One would tend to think that the lack of sun spot activity was driving such language, whereas more recently temperature had picked up, but is now stabilising as the trends in the last decade indicate. We may well see a growing cooling and indeed if that is on the cards right now, it would explain how they are in such a mad rush to push through a global treaty and with it cap and trade "to hide the decline" - their words not mine lol.
The Overfiend:
Its not just over 150 years, its over 800,000 years, they have been measuring the ice in the Antarctic dude.
Climate scientists are like archaeologists measuring back in time the carbon levels from air samples found in frozen bubbles and allover the place, carbon dating.
They know carbon levels have significantly increased over the centuries. Whether that correlates with rising temperature is not obvious but given the Co2 levels and the state of the Earth there is cause for concern for the long term affects, but the thing is you people don't think the Earth's climate will change. It dosn't mean the Earth simply gets hotter everywhere, no it means that the traditional climate over regions shifts and gets more severe.
Anyway, at the end of the day you are right to criticize the science, because basically only a few people really actually understand it, professors who teach it admit their students have trouble understanding it. I only understand it because I read an article on it. What does that tell you?
But there is reasons why its being pushed obviously, you seem to think these all involve insidious motives, but rather there is other practical perspectives to looking at it as well. Most nations will react to it differently, then that brings to questions your views on government and what you think it should be. Or even how you think human-society should be or where to you think we should go.
We holding the globe right now, nah mean
virtuoso:
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on December 23, 2009, 09:32:01 AM ---Its not just over 150 years, its over 800,000 years, they have been measuring the ice in the Antarctic dude.
--- End quote ---
You will find that they are illustrating what they deem as a global warming phenomenon by pointing to the last 150 years. My point is that's nonsense to base future predictions on such a relatively small trend. However even their own trends recently do show a decline.
Climate scientists are like archaeologists measuring back in time the carbon levels from air samples found in frozen bubbles and allover the place, carbon dating.
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on December 23, 2009, 09:32:01 AM ---They know carbon levels have significantly increased over the centuries. Whether that correlates with rising temperature is not obvious but given the Co2 levels and the state of the Earth there is cause for concern for the long term affects, but the thing is you people don't think the Earth's climate will change. It dosn't mean the Earth simply gets hotter everywhere, no it means that the traditional climate over regions shifts and gets more severe.
--- End quote ---
I think this is the more central point, the earths climate is ever changing throughout it's history. I have noticed there is a more subtle approach going on right now, the words global warming are being increasingly replaced with climate change which I find quite ironic.
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on December 23, 2009, 09:32:01 AM ---Anyway, at the end of the day you are right to criticize the science, because basically only a few people really actually understand it, professors who teach it admit their students have trouble understanding it. I only understand it because I read an article on it. What does that tell you?
--- End quote ---
The problem of course is that this not a definitive science and so interpretations can be put on the data, different indices can be used and indeed the data can simply be blatantly manipulated.
--- Quote from: Illuminati Clique on December 23, 2009, 09:32:01 AM ---But there is reasons why its being pushed obviously, you seem to think these all involve insidious motives, but rather there is other practical perspectives to looking at it as well. Most nations will react to it differently, then that brings to questions your views on government and what you think it should be. Or even how you think human-society should be or where to you think we should go.
--- End quote ---
There is going to be no instant quick fix that's the first thing, secondly I am not worried about global temperature, but I do think we are causing a lot of harm to the planet, and with it damaging wildlife, sea life and the wider environment. I think the government should be stepping aside and letting tomorrows entrepreneurs decide where we go. There is clearly a huge appetite for greener solutions and I am all in favour of them but I not worried about carbon dioxide. I am though worried that the remaining manufacturing base and economic activity will just simply be offshored to India and China whose pollution levels are much much worse than ours. In fact at this moment, pollution control is a foreign concept to these nations.
We holding the globe right now, nah mean
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2 questions for you, do you think the oil industry is actually against cap and trade, or is this just something you have heard said and thus you just assume it's true?
Secondly, when the media screens footage of an icecap melting, do you think ice caps only ever melt? i.e. just continuously
The Overfiend:
Ok your 2 questions:
1. LOL since when have I ever said 'the oil industry is against cap and trade', man please, don't try to put words in my mouth because you are playing the small shrieking man next to Jesse Ventura.
What the fuck makes you think I heard something and so simply believe, my god: stop getting all your perspective from the internet, go out and actually talk to some scientists, attend a lecture, do some reading, instead of staring teary eyed into Alex Jones grill all the time subjecting yourself to his emotional sequencing.
The oil industry is one of the biggest investors in research and money into renewable energy.
2. No, when I look at ice caps melting I think two things: they are melting as part of the normal climate cycle, they go through their seasonal cycle, however they are actually melting and not forming again at a rate to indicate they are growing, rather they are actually shrinking. There is the possibility and the SCIENCE indicates this, that the effects of naturally occurring climate change may be made more severe by the effects that human industries have had on the planet, in this case-deforestation and increase of carbon emissions, will affect the severity of climate change.
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