Kobe...

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

a bit of a stretch there lol but ok...top 5 player ever....lol

LMAO@top 5 being a stretch when he's competing for GOAT status.

He is competing in YOUR mind lol. Most experts didnt have Kobe rated a top 10 all time player prior to this year. Him winning his second title as the leader of the team I dont think will bounce him all the way into the top 5 lol But then again...Im arguing with a guy who thinks Kobe is better than Jordan (no Farmar).

Pretty much everyone already acknowledges that Kobe, at the top of his game, has surpassed or at the very least matched Jordan as far as skill goes. If he wins 6+ titles, it would be ridiculous to not include him in the GOAT discussion.

LOL!!! Wow...

First off...Kobe having 6 titles isnt the same as Jordan having 6 titles. Even ESPN radio addressed it this morning. When talking about how fans are so caught up in the present. Originally the conversation was about Rondo and how when he has a big game in the playoffs people immediately start calling him the best point guard in the league. When really, there are about 3 or 4 that definitely better then him. Then it switched to Kobe and how Kobe fans say he is better than Jordan everytime he has a big 30+ point game in the playoffs when really he is still 30 playoff games behind Jordan, 2 titles behind him..AND (important), Jordan never had Shaq.  No one looks at Kobe's first 3 titles as an AMAZING accomlpishment of an all time great, because he was the second best player on those teams. Jordan NEVER was the second best player lol. Kobe's first three titles are closer to Pippens titles....then Jordans. Kobe's title last year was a far bigger individual accomplishment then all three of the three-peat titles lol. So he has a LOT of catching up to do.

Kobe did just as much as Shaq to help the Lakers earn those titles...Again, you can't discredit Kobe because he played with Shaq. Playing, as a leader, for those great Laker teams in the earlier part of his career is part of what helped Kobe gain that drive and mental toughness he developed when he took over. Jordan mighta been the main man on his team earlier in his career, but for a while, he was also the man who was getting knocked out by the Pistons. Even when Kobe was winning titles with Shaq, he was considered the best player in the world. You can say the Lakers wouldn't have won the titles without Shaq, but they wouldn't have won em without Kobe either. Fact of the matter is, Kobe is actually still in his prime, playing amazing ball and breaking records left and right, and to take him out of the GOAT discussion this early, when his career is not even near its end, is pretty stupid.

Or, possibly, to put him IN the GOAT discussion when his career isn't finished is stupid    He has had a GREAT career, but to be up there with Jordan and Magic he better win a few ore  playoff MVPS...after all, isnt that all Kobe fans say matters now.  NOt the stats, not the regular season, just the playoff MVP.   If he gets two more, he will have as many chips as MJ, but still only half of the playoff MVP's. 

You know, in a way Kobe DOES get penalized for playing with Shaq, BUT Kobe was NEVER in consideration for MVP in any of those finals, and the one they lost he was horrible in.   Kobe was like Pippen to Shaq's Jordan.   That is still awesome, but quit trying to rewrite this shit.   And I don't recall Kobe being consdered the BEST player in the world any of the years they won the title?  He was still inconsistent and selfish at times (notice how much better he is now that he has matured, even with the slightly diminshed ahtletic ability).   Kobe is WAY better now than he was when the Lakers won those titles...what makes him so good now (especially in these playoffs) is he knows when to shoot and takeover, and when to defer to his teammates. 

AGAIN, Kobe was NOT a supporting player ala Pippen. He was a focal point on the Laker threepeat teams, even at the age of 21. Even in his early 20's, he was already up there as far as ability goes and his professionalism matched that.. and it showed when he sacrificed being a global icon and THE man on the team in order to win championships with Shaq...even Shaq was quoted as saying that Kobe was the greatest player in the world back during the Lakers' '01 playoff run, in which Kobe was the go-to-guy down the stretch who hit most of the big shots and made most of the big plays. I honestly don't even know if Jordan and Shaq woulda worked out as well as Kobe and Shaq, due to the fact that Kobe was able to defer to Shaq, even when he was an MVP caliber player who was already in GOAT discussions, while Jordan doesn't seem like the type who woulda been able to put his ego aside for such a demanding dominant presence like Shaq.

See, I see through your facade and can tell you in no way believe what you are writing...its just not ossible for an a semi-intelligent human being to actually believe this shit.   I've got it figured out- you actually know bball, hence the occasional knowledgable comment, but for the most part you just say shit for attention.   Cool

lol Kobe deferred to Shaq because that was the logical key to victory for those Laker squads. If Kobe was the focal point of those teams, Shaq would have needed to defer to Kobe. And didnt Shaq say Wade was the best player in the league when he played with him? NIK only listens to shit Shaq says, if its something good about Kobe. The rest of the time Shaq is a bitter hater lol. And Im sorry, but during those 3 peat years...the only way Kobe was part of any "GOAT" conversations was if people were saying "this kid is not going to be the GOAT" lol. Hardly anyone NOW even considers him the GOAT...or even in the top 5 players ever. Typically not even the top 10 yet. Not even the greatest Laker yet. So to think that back THEN he was in the conversation is delusional. I dont think anyone here doubts Kobe as an all time great. But NIK just goes overboard and pretends like Kobe was considered an all time great always....even by the 12 teams that passed on him in the draft.

He wasn't always an all-time great, obviously. He came outa high school and had to work his way up, which is part of why he has the greatest work ethic in basketball of all time...but around 21, 22, it was already evident to many that he was special and possessed a skill-set reminiscent of Jordan, with a drive and desire as strong, if not stronger than Jordan's. Honestly, if Shaq woulda had less of an ego and had taken a back-seat to Kobe when it was time, Lakers woulda won a couple more championships with that duo in the 03-07 era. But when Shaq bounced, Kobe had to play on rebuilding teams and that, along with the rape case, really hurt him and had the media looking for other players to market and hype. This was never the case with Jordan, which is why Kobe will NEVER be as glorified or as publicly accepted as Jordan...but as good as Jordan on the court? NOTHING currently takes Kobe out of that discussion...PeACe

when you continuously pretend as if Kobe has a better work ethich then the entire basketball world ever...and more drive than Jordan....you make your arguments seem ridiculous. Its hard to really take anything you say seriously after that. When youre trying to be convincing in an argument, it helps when the first thing you say is completely insane. And as far as Shaq taking a back seat to Kobe. If Kobe would have had less of an ego and continued to play Shaqs Robin they might have kept winning too. Who knows. Kobe being the number two on those teams to Shaq worked out pretty well. Kobe should have stayed in his place for the team. But he wanted to be the man, so Shaq went and won a title with Wade instead. I know it just KILLS you man, to know that Kobe had to be the second best player on a three-peat time lol When Jordan was NEVER second to anyone on the Bulls. Shit, LeBron hasnt ever been second to anyone.

[.:DaYg0sTyLz:.]

Kobe was clearly the 2nd offensive option during the 1st title ... it's way more arguable for the next 2... He averaged more pts than Shaq in the 2000-2001 playoffs (29.4 to 28.7) and it was very closed in 2001-2002 (27.2 for Shaq ; 26.6 for Kobe)

The reason that Shaq was the clear MVP of the Finals is the East was fuckin weak in the paint , I don't even remember who was the starting center for the Nets in 02... of course we were going to feed Shaq more than Kobe in these Finals ...

The reason Shaq was the MVP was because he was the catalyst. Points arent what determines MVP. If Amare averages more points than Nash...does that mean Amare is better that Nash? lol HELL no. The offense went through Shaq. Shaq was the focal point. You throw the ball down low...allow the double team to come....Shaq kicks the ball out to open perimeter players or a slashing Kobe. Simple. Only Kobe fans try to argue otherwise. NIK is even educated on basketball and how an offense functions, but he choses not to admit the obvious...because it doesnt make Kobe appear as the main go-to guy on those championship teams. It doesnt mean that Kobe isnt a great player. One of the greatest perimeter players ever. But the fact remains that on THOSE teams...he was #2. The rest of the world has accepted that for years, I think its time for Kobe fans to accept it.

[wcsoldier]

I don't try to argue otherwise , Shaq was the focal point ... I'm just saying that Kobe was not your regular second option ... you won't find many 2nd options who averaged 27 , 5 and 5 on a championship team ...  so he deserved more credit for those titles than some of you give him ..

I don't think that we would have made it to the Finals these years and  if  you replace Kobe by let's say Ginobili in his prime .... do you think so ?

[theremedy360]

Kobe & Shaq were one of the most amazing combos in history. I don't get how people can discredit either. Kobe was the most dominant guard in the league ,and Shaq the most dominant big man in the league, it's a shame for LA that they couldn't co-exist longer.

[wcsoldier]

they could have won 1 or 2 more titles ...  off topic but I enjoy more watching our team since 08 than these threepeat years... Shaq style of play was not "pretty" to watch

[7even]

Not to mention that Shaq was much better than Kobe in the '04 Finals

[Shallow]

I don't try to argue otherwise , Shaq was the focal point ... I'm just saying that Kobe was not your regular second option ... you won't find many 2nd options who averaged 27 , 5 and 5 on a championship team ...  so he deserved more credit for those titles than some of you give him ..

I don't think that we would have made it to the Finals these years and  if  you replace Kobe by let's say Ginobili in his prime .... do you think so ?

Maybe not, but with Lebron in his prime and Shaq in his prime I'd guess about 4 straight titles.

[teecee]

This revisionist bullshit, saying Kobe was the man on those Lakers teams, or that he was as great as soon as he entered the league, is no different than hiphop heads saying Reasonable Doubt had a huge impact on the game and was the best album to drop in the 90's.

Fact=  Jay Z was second or third to Biggie, Nas, and even a few others

Fact= Kobe was second to SHaq, and there were a few other players as good as Kobe in 2001 or 2002



We saw glimpses of what Kobe could become, we saw glimpses of what Jay could become...both were at the ceiling ability wise, but had yet to perfect the rest of their games.


NOW...Jay is being talked about as the best ever, and so is  Kobe.  But the ones who don't REVISE everything years later KNOW Jay wasn't seeing Nas or BIG, and Kobe sure wasn't seeing SHAQ on those teams.   He was important, a great player (if a bit immature and selfish), and definitely instrumental in the victories.  But he was NOT fucking with Shaq

[OG Hack Wilson]

jay-z was never NEAR, i repeat NEVER near Big L or Big Pun status  (or Biggie or Nas or GZA)

[teecee]

"I think he's a better and a more well-rounded total basketball player," Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said at a charity event in which a community center blocks from the arena was dedicated by NBA Cares. "And that includes leadership, teammate skills, things you get better at as you mature. Five, six years ago, he was off the charts athletically. Today he's still incredibly athletic but not as athletic as 26. When you look at the total package, yes, he's better now."


Everyone but NIK can see that Kobe wasn't always as good as he is now

And Hans, I've never been a Jay fan like that so I feel you...he just happens to be the guy that everyone is saying is the GOAT now

[Sccit]

I don't try to argue otherwise , Shaq was the focal point ... I'm just saying that Kobe was not your regular second option ... you won't find many 2nd options who averaged 27 , 5 and 5 on a championship team ...  so he deserved more credit for those titles than some of you give him ..

I don't think that we would have made it to the Finals these years and  if  you replace Kobe by let's say Ginobili in his prime .... do you think so ?

Maybe not, but with Lebron in his prime and Shaq in his prime I'd guess about 4 straight titles.

LMAO...LeBron doesn't have the outide game nor the clutch play to make a LeBron-Shaq duo even HALF as successful as the Kobe-Shaq 1-2 punch of the threepeat era. The inside-outside game was vital. Shaq clogged up the lane, where LeBron scores most his point...do you watch basketball, Shallow? Because you do seem like a knowledgeable person...just that you sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about in this instance, and a lot of the time when you argue against Kobe.

[Sccit]

I don't try to argue otherwise , Shaq was the focal point ... I'm just saying that Kobe was not your regular second option ... you won't find many 2nd options who averaged 27 , 5 and 5 on a championship team ...  so he deserved more credit for those titles than some of you give him ..

I don't think that we would have made it to the Finals these years and  if  you replace Kobe by let's say Ginobili in his prime .... do you think so ?

Money...Just the fact that they call him "Robin" goes to show how narrow-minded most of the peeps who post here are.

[Sccit]

"I think he's a better and a more well-rounded total basketball player," Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said at a charity event in which a community center blocks from the arena was dedicated by NBA Cares. "And that includes leadership, teammate skills, things you get better at as you mature. Five, six years ago, he was off the charts athletically. Today he's still incredibly athletic but not as athletic as 26. When you look at the total package, yes, he's better now."


Everyone but NIK can see that Kobe wasn't always as good as he is now

And Hans, I've never been a Jay fan like that so I feel you...he just happens to be the guy that everyone is saying is the GOAT now

Of course Kobe is at (or near) the top of his game now...but regardless, he's been the best player in basketball for quite some time now. He just never got the hype Jordan did, but as far as basketball goes, NOBODY, not LeBron, not Nash, not Duncan...none of 'em have been as good as Kobe has been over the last decade.

[Muhfukka]

bitch ass jew posting 3 times in a row to defend his american idol kobe

[OG Hack Wilson]

"I think he's a better and a more well-rounded total basketball player," Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said at a charity event in which a community center blocks from the arena was dedicated by NBA Cares. "And that includes leadership, teammate skills, things you get better at as you mature. Five, six years ago, he was off the charts athletically. Today he's still incredibly athletic but not as athletic as 26. When you look at the total package, yes, he's better now."


Everyone but NIK can see that Kobe wasn't always as good as he is now

And Hans, I've never been a Jay fan like that so I feel you...he just happens to be the guy that everyone is saying is the GOAT now

Of course Kobe is at (or near) the top of his game now...but regardless, he's been the best player in basketball for quite some time now. He just never got the hype Jordan did, but as far as basketball goes, NOBODY, not LeBron, not Nash, not Duncan...none of 'em have been as good as Kobe has been over the last decade.

kobe has one MVP in his career. meanwhile Nash and Lebron both have two over that time frame.   not sure how you can say Kobe is the best player overthe last decade in that case.


oh and Kobe was NEVER the best player in the nba during the Shaq-Kobe era so at best Kobe has been the best Laker only since 2005.