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Trauma-san:
Hmmm, if you say so.  :)  My church has 11 million members worldwide, and no paid clergy; they have a 100% volunteer driven charity program that does thousands of things in hundreds of countries around the world; I'd feel pretty confident giving them money.    I might be pretty ignorant, but I think even an ignorant person could tell a good charity from a bad one.  I'd just look for charities like that.

And most rich successful people didn't "challenge public opinion"; they just played the system.  

Ant:
Your church is quite unique in that regards.  All my knowledge of religion comes from  a Roman Catholic perspective.  I actually have a lot of admiration for different sects of christianity.  A lot of them seem to have much more admirable ideals than the catholic church.  Although my knowledge here is limited at present time.

Your last statement however is an assumption.  There are a certain organizations that "play the system."  In fact your required to play "within" the system if you want to be in business.  However, that system was created by public opinion.  Secondly,  some people get by searching for loops holes.  Many get by searching for something of value.    

In citing accomplished men and women.  I was not refering to businessmen only.  In fact, I believe accomplishment comes in many different forms. There are highly accomplished artists, businessmen, educators, philosophers, authors, athletes, etc.  existing in this world today.  My only prerequiste for accomplishment is that it is not based on faith, luck, or coincidence.  Accomplishment based on faith from a religious perspective was granted by God.  But from a nonreligious perspective its coincidence.  For me admirable accomplishment is the product of intelligence and ability.

Furthmore I never said successful people "challenge" public opinion.  I said they don't base their own actions and beliefs on public opinion.  Thats much different.  

Trauma-san:
So you wouldn't consider the Pope Successful?



The guy that won, more info is coming out.  He's got a construction company in west virginia, and get this, this is what he plans to spend the money on so far.

1. Pay tithing to three different pastors he knows (that's good of him, I think)
2. Buy a helicopter for his business, so he can spend more time with his family.  That's good too.
3. Visit Israel, where he's always wanted to visit.  I think that's admirable too, that that's his biggest dream is to visit where Christ lived.




And.







His daughter wants a car, and to meet Nelly.  No, I'm not lying.  They asked him if he thought he could do it, and he said "I feel confident I can make it happen".  

Ant:
No from my perspective the pope is not successful.  He dedicates his life to a false ideaology.  

Another point on success.  The Pope probably enjoyed his life, and is greatly admired.  In fact, I can admire certain aspects about the pope.  However, normally humans consider success as the ultimate goal in life. It comes in many forms but we all want it.  However, does anyone really want to be the Pope?  If you had the opportunity given to you how many people would take it?  Not many.  Kind of ironic.

I am not saying the pope hasn't acheived anything, I'm saying that what he achieved was not based on reason but on faith.  He acts in accordance to what he believes God tells him.  In a sense thats mindless.  Although I'm guessin the pope is actually a quite rational being at least from the catholic perspective.  So I'll revise my statement.  If you believe the pope is Gods outlet to the world and he does whatever God tells him then no I do not find him to be successful.   All his accomplishments were either granted by God, or if God was not directing him and he just believed he was being directed then they were coincidence.   However, if you believe that the Pope does not follow directives from God and acts on his own accord using whatever knowledge and information he has to make decisions then I say he is accomplished.  

Ant:
If interested...

For another response to this post refer to my post titled "Money is the root of all evil?"

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