PACMAN FANS...HELLO,anybody out there?????

[weedhead]

  ...he wants may weather.get the fuck out of here.

[Nutty]

Mayweather will be too slick for Pacman.

Great KO, was backing Marquez..... he was robbed in the third encounter.

[Hack Wilson - real]

pacman is one of the best arcade games ever 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

It was a good fight though.  I don't view it as the "end" of Manny.  Yes, he got his ass knocked out, but it's not like his ass was getting knocked around the ring the whole time.  Remember that he was actually winning the fight prior to the knockout (though obviously that doesn't matter in the end when you get put to bed), but he definitely looked better than he did in his last two fights.

But to be fair... for all of the people who were suspicious of Manny being on PEDs in the past due to his relatively small size but ability to rise through the weight categories and knock around bigger guys, the thought has to at least cross your mind for Marquez to have done that.  Hopefully he's not on that stuff though.

[Sccit]

man...pacman really fell asleep, though. how can a boxer of his caliber put up such shitty defense? that was really a horrible sequence for him before he got knocked out.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

He just got overconfident.  Realistically speaking, he had bounced back from the knockdown, knocked Marquez down, broke his nose and was winning the fight and outpunching him... until he forgot that Marquez is one of the best counterpunchers in the game.

[Javii]

He just got overconfident.  Realistically speaking, he had bounced back from the knockdown, knocked Marquez down, broke his nose and was winning the fight and outpunching him... until he forgot that Marquez is one of the best counterpunchers in the game.

I don't trust compubox numbers at all. They basically had Pacquiao outlanding Marquez two to one? Come on now. Manny like in all of his fights, misses a lot. But Judges and especially some commentators suffer from MannyVision. For fuck's sake, Lampley was almost in tears because Pacquiao was knocked out! All of this PED talk nowadays, it's all fucking karma that has been building up for 3 years. For 3 straight years: Manny, Freddy, and Bob Arum have avoided random blood and urine testing. People claim, Manny agreed Manny agreed, but look at the facts. He never agreed to testing with any of his opponents, when he could have. Excuses ranged from "giving blood makes me weak" and "let the commission do its job". Freddy got caught implying Marquez is on PEDs, and he quickly backtracked once Marquez said "Let's do it, as long as Pacquiao goes in for testing too" He then stated he was joking. LMAO. It's absoltely shameful though that Floyd was given shit for asking Pacquiao to submit random blood and urine testing. HBO, sports writers, and fans gave him shit. Now when they're hero gets destroyed, all of a sudden....PED discussion is on the table.


And in regards to defense. That's a characteristic of a Freddy Roach fighter, especially one that he molds for a long time. These fighters have little to no defense. Look at his 3 big recent profile fighters. Chavez Jr (shitty defense), Pacquiao (below average defense), Khan (shitty defense, and he left Roach). I do give Roach a lot of credit for creating good attack fighters though. 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

I don't trust compubox numbers at all. They basically had Pacquiao outlanding Marquez two to one? Come on now. Manny like in all of his fights, misses a lot.

Manny was throwing a lot of punches and also landing a lot too, clearly outlanding Marquez.  I don't think that is up for debate.

But Judges and especially some commentators suffer from MannyVision.

The judges obviously didn't have "MannyVision" back in June during the Bradley fight, so that goes out of the window.  People say that what the commentators say can influence the viewers at home (which may or may not be true), but the reality is that for the 10,000+ people watching the fight, they obviously don't hear what the commentators say, yet they also react as well.  But obviously when Manny's opponents land punches on him, they get attention too.  Though admittedly I think people in general do get a little excited when Manny starts throwing punches, period.

All of this PED talk nowadays, it's all fucking karma that has been building up for 3 years. For 3 straight years: Manny, Freddy, and Bob Arum have avoided random blood and urine testing.

Well, they have never avoided urine testing, so that's an inaccuracy right there.  It's been in every fight.  And speaking of which, they both tested negative, so there's not much else to say about PEDs for either of them.  Effective or not, remember that it was URINE tests, not blood tests, that caught Berto and Petersen earlier this year, so it's not like they don't work.  I'm not sure about Morales' test being urine or blood, but I think that was supposedly a false positive.  It's just silly when people try to act like Manny doesn't want drug testing at all, which obviously isn't the case.

BPeople claim, Manny agreed Manny agreed, but look at the facts. He never agreed to testing with any of his opponents, when he could have. Excuses ranged from "giving blood makes me weak" and "let the commission do its job".

That was true in the beginning, but if you followed boxing news at all, Manny's side began to make compromises and eventually accept the blood testing.  I think it was stupid for them to avoid it in the beginning, but the fact remains that they did agree to the full blood testing demands (with no cutoff) in 2011.  But the problem was that whenever Floyd was asked about if he would fight Manny, he would redirect attention to the blood tests.  For example, after he beat Cotto, I think he was asked about it and the money split was brought up (where Floyd made the completely unreasonable demand of Manny only getting $40 million while he got to keep the rest, which likely would've ended up being well in excess of $100 million), he avoided that topic and again talked about blood testing, making it seem like that was the road block while conveniently drawing attention away from the money issue.  Besides, he wouldn't agree to testing with his opponents when no one other than Mayweather was demanding it.  In Pacquiao-Marquez III, there were also mentions of Marquez's physique, but Manny's side specifically said that they didn't feel like asking Marquez to take blood tests since that would have been hypocritcal of them.  And they stuck to it.

Freddy got caught implying Marquez is on PEDs, and he quickly backtracked once Marquez said "Let's do it, as long as Pacquiao goes in for testing too" He then stated he was joking. LMAO.

That's not true.  Roach has always been a joking-kind of guy, and he's not going to throw serious accusations like that when his own fighter got accused of it and sued his accusers and won in court.  Roach said he was joking after Marquez's trainer threatened legal action against him.

It's absoltely shameful though that Floyd was given shit for asking Pacquiao to submit random blood and urine testing. HBO, sports writers, and fans gave him shit. Now when they're hero gets destroyed, all of a sudden....PED discussion is on the table.

But they're not holding anyone to double-standards.  With Marquez, Roach just made ONE comment about him, and it was him alone.  Manny, Ariza, Koncz, Arum, etc. didn't make any comments about Marquez and PEDs.  Additionally, they did not demands any tests of Marquez beyond what the NSAC requires.  I don't blame Floyd for wondering if Manny was on PEDs, but they went pretty far with their stance, from requiring random blood testing (and shifting their requirements -- remember that during the first round of negotiations, Floyd's side allowed a 14-day cutoff before the fight, then they ended up wanting random tests up until the day of the fight) and making repeated blatant accusations of PED use not just from Floyd but Floyd Sr., Roger and Oscar too.  The fact that it went to court and ended up in a settlement and a verbal retraction of their accusations shows what it was.

And in regards to defense. That's a characteristic of a Freddy Roach fighter, especially one that he molds for a long time. These fighters have little to no defense. Look at his 3 big recent profile fighters. Chavez Jr (shitty defense), Pacquiao (below average defense), Khan (shitty defense, and he left Roach). I do give Roach a lot of credit for creating good attack fighters though.

I agree with you there, 100%.  I suppose Roach's idea for a good defense being a good offense is only good when his fighter can throw punch after punch to the point where his opponent can't fire back, at least not effectively.  He's introduced things like better head movement, but not much beyond that.  But he clearly doesn't emphasize it enough to the point where the fighter sticks with it, since even something so basic as that goes out of the window after a couple of rounds.  I know that is one thing that Floyd Sr. has always commented on about Manny, saying that his defense is poor and his head movement is minimal.

In the end, I hope Manny bounces back -- even Floyd has gone on record and said that too, as uncharacteristic as it was to read those statements.  While Marquez clearly has had the best performance between the two of them in their four fights, I still think that he owes it to Manny to give him another shot, since Manny gave him a shot when the official stats for Marquez were 0-2-1.  Even the rubber match was iffy at first, since that is usually reserved for when the score is 1-1, not 1-0-1 (or 0-1-1 for Marquez).  And if he loses again, then that story ends and Manny should retire if it's either a one-sided fight or another KO.

[Javii]

1. It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.

2. Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL

3 and 4. Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.

Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.

How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.


They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead. STRAIGHT KARMA. Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.

[Javii]

How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights. And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.

It favors Manny because he was clearly throwing and landing more punches.  It's not complicated.

Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL

So basically no one is a good indicator.  Not the crowd, not the judges, not the commentators.

Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.

Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.

How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.

Manny was never IN FAVOR of blood tests.  He just eventually agreed to them for a Mayweather fight as Mayweather demanded, not to implement them into every single fight he took on from that point forward.  So it's silly to argue that he should've done them in every fight of his when it wasn't his own demand in the first place.

They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead.

There's more to it than that.  They didn't "agree" to the 14-day cutoff since that's not what Top Rank was asking for or agreed to.  Team Mayweather wanted blood tests, Team Pacquiao said it was unnecessary.  Team Mayweather claimed that Manny had done a blood test before so they wanted it again, and Team Pacquaio looked it up and it was done 24 days before the actual fight, so that's what they offered.  Team Mayweather offered a compromise by allowing a 14-day cutoff, but there was never an acceptance of that, and they went in different directions.  Even though it was a detail brought up later than it should have (as it was not one of Team Mayweather's initial demands when they were discussing the purse split, weight stipulations and gloves), I will place more blame on Team Pacquiao, I'll give you that.  But they never agreed to 14 days during that round.

After Pacquiao beat Clottey and Mayweather beat Mosley, both sides gave it another shot, and Team Pacquiao came to the table accepting Mayweather's previous compromise of 14 days, but Team Mayweather changed their stance and wanted testing up until the day of the fight.  Team Pacquiao had offered a compromise of 7 days, but Team Mayweather did not accept, as Top Rank set a deadline for Team Mayweather that they did not respond to, hence the Pacquiao-Margarito fight.

\Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.

Are you kidding?  A LOT of people questioned Pacquiao.  Definitely not the majority, but enough people did to split up the boxing world.  Even some Manny fans did.  I think one of the writers for Yahoo was pretty vocal about it as well.  And no one said anything about "cleaning up the sport" after Manny got knocked out.  But I guarantee that if Manny had KO'd Marquez in a similar fashion, the same accusations would pop up like they always do by his critics.  And if the guy in Manny's corner had been a previous known supplier of PEDs to athletes, it would be a fucking field day with accusations flying left and right.  But when it's the exact opposite, apparently that shit doesn't matter.

How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights.

I have said it multiple times, I agree with the fact that Manny should've just taken the tests in the first place.  But again, there's no reason for him to subject himself to blood tests when it's not being demanded -- Manny didn't want them but Mayweather did, hence why they were trying to come to an agreement.  But it wasn't something to be taken on as the new testing standard for all of Manny's fights.

And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.

Tell that to Berto and Petersen.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Don't get me wrong -- yes, I am a Manny fan, but I'm a boxing fan.  I'm not blindly siding with Manny every time, I can call it like it is.  I've said it time and time again (particularly over the past two years), Mayweather would probably beat Manny if they ever fought.  Marquez's punch wasn't lucky, it was a well-executed punch that worked out perfectly.

[Javii]

It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.

It favors Manny because he was clearly throwing and landing more punches.  It's not complicated.

Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL

So basically no one is a good indicator.  Not the crowd, not the judges, not the commentators.

Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.

Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.

How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.

Manny was never IN FAVOR of blood tests.  He just eventually agreed to them for a Mayweather fight as Mayweather demanded, not to implement them into every single fight he took on from that point forward.  So it's silly to argue that he should've done them in every fight of his when it wasn't his own demand in the first place.

They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead.

There's more to it than that.  They didn't "agree" to the 14-day cutoff since that's not what Top Rank was asking for or agreed to.  Team Mayweather wanted blood tests, Team Pacquiao said it was unnecessary.  Team Mayweather claimed that Manny had done a blood test before so they wanted it again, and Team Pacquaio looked it up and it was done 24 days before the actual fight, so that's what they offered.  Team Mayweather offered a compromise by allowing a 14-day cutoff, but there was never an acceptance of that, and they went in different directions.  Even though it was a detail brought up later than it should have (as it was not one of Team Mayweather's initial demands when they were discussing the purse split, weight stipulations and gloves), I will place more blame on Team Pacquiao, I'll give you that.  But they never agreed to 14 days during that round.

After Pacquiao beat Clottey and Mayweather beat Mosley, both sides gave it another shot, and Team Pacquiao came to the table accepting Mayweather's previous compromise of 14 days, but Team Mayweather changed their stance and wanted testing up until the day of the fight.  Team Pacquiao had offered a compromise of 7 days, but Team Mayweather did not accept, as Top Rank set a deadline for Team Mayweather that they did not respond to, hence the Pacquiao-Margarito fight.

\Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.

Are you kidding?  A LOT of people questioned Pacquiao.  Definitely not the majority, but enough people did to split up the boxing world.  Even some Manny fans did.  I think one of the writers for Yahoo was pretty vocal about it as well.  And no one said anything about "cleaning up the sport" after Manny got knocked out.  But I guarantee that if Manny had KO'd Marquez in a similar fashion, the same accusations would pop up like they always do by his critics.  And if the guy in Manny's corner had been a previous known supplier of PEDs to athletes, it would be a fucking field day with accusations flying left and right.  But when it's the exact opposite, apparently that shit doesn't matter.

How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights.

I have said it multiple times, I agree with the fact that Manny should've just taken the tests in the first place.  But again, there's no reason for him to subject himself to blood tests when it's not being demanded -- Manny didn't want them but Mayweather did, hence why they were trying to come to an agreement.  But it wasn't something to be taken on as the new testing standard for all of Manny's fights.

And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.

Tell that to Berto and Petersen.

It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have. Plus, a simple way to show that blood testing was never an issue, is to simply just accept it with all other fighters. Don't wait until 2013.


None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.


Timeline
-Random blood and urine testing by Mayweather proposed
-3 dates idea proposed by Top Rank
-Team Mayweather stood firm
-30 day proposal is offered by Manny because giving a drop of blood weakens Manny lol
-video surfaces of Manny taking a blood test within 24 days of a fight
-Top Rank proposes a 24 day cut off date.
-Team Mayweather offers 14 day cut off, but Team Pacquiao rejects it

Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.

It's all Karma.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have.

But I don't think that Manny (or at his least people on his team) is pushing for blood testing now, which is what I assume you're referring to.  So it's not like they were against it before and then in favor of it now.  I'll look through recent articles, but I think they're still not in favor for them but willing to do it if it's a demand, such as in the case of the Mayweather negotiations.

None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.

My stance on that is that writers were just a little baffled with Floyd's timing of requiring only then, when it wasn't a requirement when he fought anyone before they started negotiations, from Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya and everyone else before that.  Floyd's stance was that he wanted to "clean up boxing," which I can respect, but if that were really his intention, then I'd have expected him to contact the NSAC directly and have them implement blood testing into their drug testing procedures to have it apply to ALL fights in Nevada (eventually with other states to follow).  But I do at least respect him for holding all of his later opponents to the same standard, as Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto all did it.

Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.

But the things that Floyd agreed to weren't really things that inconvenienced him.  The "penalty" is exaggerated -- it existed anyway, they just made the penalty for coming in heavier a lot more significant ($10 million per pound) due to Floyd's fight prior to that ignoring the catchweight (144 against Marquez), but the fight was at the full limit of 147, which Floyd has NEVER had a problem with making.  So it wasn't inconveniencing him, they just kept the same limits but had a really high penalty if he came in heavier than 147 which would've been very unlikely for Floyd.  If the penalty were $10 instead of $10 million, it's no more physically demanding of him than in any of his other fights at 147.  He'd just lose more money... if he broke the rule and came in overweight.  Him coming in first isn't a big deal, and it kind of makes sense since Manny was a belt holder at 147.  I don't remember there being anything about the ring size, but the glove size is always a detail that you have to figure out.

Good discussion though -- we obviously have some disagreements but I can at least appreciate how it's going down.  But again, I agree with you 100% that Manny should've just taken the blood tests to begin with.

[Javii]

It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have.

But I don't think that Manny (or at his least people on his team) is pushing for blood testing now, which is what I assume you're referring to.  So it's not like they were against it before and then in favor of it now.  I'll look through recent articles, but I think they're still not in favor for them but willing to do it if it's a demand, such as in the case of the Mayweather negotiations.

None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.

My stance on that is that writers were just a little baffled with Floyd's timing of requiring only then, when it wasn't a requirement when he fought anyone before they started negotiations, from Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya and everyone else before that.  Floyd's stance was that he wanted to "clean up boxing," which I can respect, but if that were really his intention, then I'd have expected him to contact the NSAC directly and have them implement blood testing into their drug testing procedures to have it apply to ALL fights in Nevada (eventually with other states to follow).  But I do at least respect him for holding all of his later opponents to the same standard, as Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto all did it.

Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.

But the things that Floyd agreed to weren't really things that inconvenienced him.  The "penalty" is exaggerated -- it existed anyway, they just made the penalty for coming in heavier a lot more significant ($10 million per pound) due to Floyd's fight prior to that ignoring the catchweight (144 against Marquez), but the fight was at the full limit of 147, which Floyd has NEVER had a problem with making.  So it wasn't inconveniencing him, they just kept the same limits but had a really high penalty if he came in heavier than 147 which would've been very unlikely for Floyd.  If the penalty were $10 instead of $10 million, it's no more physically demanding of him than in any of his other fights at 147.  He'd just lose more money... if he broke the rule and came in overweight.  Him coming in first isn't a big deal, and it kind of makes sense since Manny was a belt holder at 147.  I don't remember there being anything about the ring size, but the glove size is always a detail that you have to figure out.

Good discussion though -- we obviously have some disagreements but I can at least appreciate how it's going down.  But again, I agree with you 100% that Manny should've just taken the blood tests to begin with.

Bob Arum says he wants blood testing for the upcoming Pacquiao Marquez V fight (if it's made). I don't know how Pacquiao's team feels, but his promoter definitely wants it. And it seems that Bob Arum calls the shots for everyone at Top Rank.


I think it's better to put pressure on the athletic commisions by implementing blood testing on the individual first. If Floyd would have gone to the commission first, Arum would have wanted the fight in Dallas. Dubai was also in the air for both fighters. You had to go through the fighters first I think.