Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
PACMAN FANS...HELLO,anybody out there?????
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.
--- End quote ---
It favors Manny because he was clearly throwing and landing more punches. It's not complicated.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL
--- End quote ---
So basically no one is a good indicator. Not the crowd, not the judges, not the commentators.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.
Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.
How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.
--- End quote ---
Manny was never IN FAVOR of blood tests. He just eventually agreed to them for a Mayweather fight as Mayweather demanded, not to implement them into every single fight he took on from that point forward. So it's silly to argue that he should've done them in every fight of his when it wasn't his own demand in the first place.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead.
--- End quote ---
There's more to it than that. They didn't "agree" to the 14-day cutoff since that's not what Top Rank was asking for or agreed to. Team Mayweather wanted blood tests, Team Pacquiao said it was unnecessary. Team Mayweather claimed that Manny had done a blood test before so they wanted it again, and Team Pacquaio looked it up and it was done 24 days before the actual fight, so that's what they offered. Team Mayweather offered a compromise by allowing a 14-day cutoff, but there was never an acceptance of that, and they went in different directions. Even though it was a detail brought up later than it should have (as it was not one of Team Mayweather's initial demands when they were discussing the purse split, weight stipulations and gloves), I will place more blame on Team Pacquiao, I'll give you that. But they never agreed to 14 days during that round.
After Pacquiao beat Clottey and Mayweather beat Mosley, both sides gave it another shot, and Team Pacquiao came to the table accepting Mayweather's previous compromise of 14 days, but Team Mayweather changed their stance and wanted testing up until the day of the fight. Team Pacquiao had offered a compromise of 7 days, but Team Mayweather did not accept, as Top Rank set a deadline for Team Mayweather that they did not respond to, hence the Pacquiao-Margarito fight.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---\Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.
--- End quote ---
Are you kidding? A LOT of people questioned Pacquiao. Definitely not the majority, but enough people did to split up the boxing world. Even some Manny fans did. I think one of the writers for Yahoo was pretty vocal about it as well. And no one said anything about "cleaning up the sport" after Manny got knocked out. But I guarantee that if Manny had KO'd Marquez in a similar fashion, the same accusations would pop up like they always do by his critics. And if the guy in Manny's corner had been a previous known supplier of PEDs to athletes, it would be a fucking field day with accusations flying left and right. But when it's the exact opposite, apparently that shit doesn't matter.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:20:05 PM ---How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights.
--- End quote ---
I have said it multiple times, I agree with the fact that Manny should've just taken the tests in the first place. But again, there's no reason for him to subject himself to blood tests when it's not being demanded -- Manny didn't want them but Mayweather did, hence why they were trying to come to an agreement. But it wasn't something to be taken on as the new testing standard for all of Manny's fights.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:20:05 PM ---And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.
--- End quote ---
Tell that to Berto and Petersen.
DeeezNuuuts83:
Don't get me wrong -- yes, I am a Manny fan, but I'm a boxing fan. I'm not blindly siding with Manny every time, I can call it like it is. I've said it time and time again (particularly over the past two years), Mayweather would probably beat Manny if they ever fought. Marquez's punch wasn't lucky, it was a well-executed punch that worked out perfectly.
Javii:
--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on December 17, 2012, 10:38:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---It is up for the debate. Look at the fight, the compubox clearly favors Manny.
--- End quote ---
It favors Manny because he was clearly throwing and landing more punches. It's not complicated.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---Crowd is the worst indicator of how close a fight is. Most of them have horrible views of the fight. They thought De La Hoya was robbed vs Mayweather LOL
--- End quote ---
So basically no one is a good indicator. Not the crowd, not the judges, not the commentators.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---Pacquiao has never submitted himself to a blood test. Talking and these verbal so called agreements that come from outside show nothing. Put it into action.
Pacquiao had a chance to get blood tested for these fights, but never chose to.
-Clottey
-Margarito
-Cotto
-De La Hoya
-Marquez III and IV
-Bradley.
How about do the damn thing instead of claiming to be in favor of it.
--- End quote ---
Manny was never IN FAVOR of blood tests. He just eventually agreed to them for a Mayweather fight as Mayweather demanded, not to implement them into every single fight he took on from that point forward. So it's silly to argue that he should've done them in every fight of his when it wasn't his own demand in the first place.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---They agreed to 14 day cut off date, because Top Rank was fucking crying about it. Once they agreed to 14 days, Top Rank chose to fight Clottey instead.
--- End quote ---
There's more to it than that. They didn't "agree" to the 14-day cutoff since that's not what Top Rank was asking for or agreed to. Team Mayweather wanted blood tests, Team Pacquiao said it was unnecessary. Team Mayweather claimed that Manny had done a blood test before so they wanted it again, and Team Pacquaio looked it up and it was done 24 days before the actual fight, so that's what they offered. Team Mayweather offered a compromise by allowing a 14-day cutoff, but there was never an acceptance of that, and they went in different directions. Even though it was a detail brought up later than it should have (as it was not one of Team Mayweather's initial demands when they were discussing the purse split, weight stipulations and gloves), I will place more blame on Team Pacquiao, I'll give you that. But they never agreed to 14 days during that round.
After Pacquiao beat Clottey and Mayweather beat Mosley, both sides gave it another shot, and Team Pacquiao came to the table accepting Mayweather's previous compromise of 14 days, but Team Mayweather changed their stance and wanted testing up until the day of the fight. Team Pacquiao had offered a compromise of 7 days, but Team Mayweather did not accept, as Top Rank set a deadline for Team Mayweather that they did not respond to, hence the Pacquiao-Margarito fight.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM ---\Pacquiao was never fucking questioned by the sports writers, HBO, and majority of fans. Here you go on the days of one of the biggest knock outs in the history of the sport, then came the PED talk for Marquez. Oh so now it's time to clean up the sport when their damn idol loses in a vicious fashion.
--- End quote ---
Are you kidding? A LOT of people questioned Pacquiao. Definitely not the majority, but enough people did to split up the boxing world. Even some Manny fans did. I think one of the writers for Yahoo was pretty vocal about it as well. And no one said anything about "cleaning up the sport" after Manny got knocked out. But I guarantee that if Manny had KO'd Marquez in a similar fashion, the same accusations would pop up like they always do by his critics. And if the guy in Manny's corner had been a previous known supplier of PEDs to athletes, it would be a fucking field day with accusations flying left and right. But when it's the exact opposite, apparently that shit doesn't matter.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:20:05 PM ---How simple would have been for not only negotiations but to just shut up the critics, was to submit himself to random blood testing in any of his numerous fights.
--- End quote ---
I have said it multiple times, I agree with the fact that Manny should've just taken the tests in the first place. But again, there's no reason for him to subject himself to blood tests when it's not being demanded -- Manny didn't want them but Mayweather did, hence why they were trying to come to an agreement. But it wasn't something to be taken on as the new testing standard for all of Manny's fights.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 17, 2012, 09:20:05 PM ---And according to the chemists out there that work with sport athletes, your team has to be completely moronic to get caught with a urine test.
--- End quote ---
Tell that to Berto and Petersen.
--- End quote ---
It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have. Plus, a simple way to show that blood testing was never an issue, is to simply just accept it with all other fighters. Don't wait until 2013.
None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.
Timeline
-Random blood and urine testing by Mayweather proposed
-3 dates idea proposed by Top Rank
-Team Mayweather stood firm
-30 day proposal is offered by Manny because giving a drop of blood weakens Manny lol
-video surfaces of Manny taking a blood test within 24 days of a fight
-Top Rank proposes a 24 day cut off date.
-Team Mayweather offers 14 day cut off, but Team Pacquiao rejects it
Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.
It's all Karma.
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have.
--- End quote ---
But I don't think that Manny (or at his least people on his team) is pushing for blood testing now, which is what I assume you're referring to. So it's not like they were against it before and then in favor of it now. I'll look through recent articles, but I think they're still not in favor for them but willing to do it if it's a demand, such as in the case of the Mayweather negotiations.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.
--- End quote ---
My stance on that is that writers were just a little baffled with Floyd's timing of requiring only then, when it wasn't a requirement when he fought anyone before they started negotiations, from Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya and everyone else before that. Floyd's stance was that he wanted to "clean up boxing," which I can respect, but if that were really his intention, then I'd have expected him to contact the NSAC directly and have them implement blood testing into their drug testing procedures to have it apply to ALL fights in Nevada (eventually with other states to follow). But I do at least respect him for holding all of his later opponents to the same standard, as Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto all did it.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.
--- End quote ---
But the things that Floyd agreed to weren't really things that inconvenienced him. The "penalty" is exaggerated -- it existed anyway, they just made the penalty for coming in heavier a lot more significant ($10 million per pound) due to Floyd's fight prior to that ignoring the catchweight (144 against Marquez), but the fight was at the full limit of 147, which Floyd has NEVER had a problem with making. So it wasn't inconveniencing him, they just kept the same limits but had a really high penalty if he came in heavier than 147 which would've been very unlikely for Floyd. If the penalty were $10 instead of $10 million, it's no more physically demanding of him than in any of his other fights at 147. He'd just lose more money... if he broke the rule and came in overweight. Him coming in first isn't a big deal, and it kind of makes sense since Manny was a belt holder at 147. I don't remember there being anything about the ring size, but the glove size is always a detail that you have to figure out.
Good discussion though -- we obviously have some disagreements but I can at least appreciate how it's going down. But again, I agree with you 100% that Manny should've just taken the blood tests to begin with.
Javii:
--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on December 18, 2012, 07:11:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---It's silly for Pacquiao to submit himself for drug testing back in 2010 and in all of his recent fights? But now it's not silly anymore according to Top Rank who represents Manny. That's the issue I have.
--- End quote ---
But I don't think that Manny (or at his least people on his team) is pushing for blood testing now, which is what I assume you're referring to. So it's not like they were against it before and then in favor of it now. I'll look through recent articles, but I think they're still not in favor for them but willing to do it if it's a demand, such as in the case of the Mayweather negotiations.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---None of the major boxings writers pressured anyone for testing. They gave Floyd shit for bringing it up. Lampley or Merchant never questioned Pacquiao. Fat Dan Rafael never questioned Pacquiao. Kevin Iole never did it. These guys are the most famous boxing people out there to the general public, and they all have a cloud of suspicion over Marquez' win. Sports in general has been tainted with PEDs, and this issue could have been prevented at an even earlier stage.
--- End quote ---
My stance on that is that writers were just a little baffled with Floyd's timing of requiring only then, when it wasn't a requirement when he fought anyone before they started negotiations, from Marquez, Hatton, De La Hoya and everyone else before that. Floyd's stance was that he wanted to "clean up boxing," which I can respect, but if that were really his intention, then I'd have expected him to contact the NSAC directly and have them implement blood testing into their drug testing procedures to have it apply to ALL fights in Nevada (eventually with other states to follow). But I do at least respect him for holding all of his later opponents to the same standard, as Mosley, Ortiz and Cotto all did it.
--- Quote from: Javii on December 18, 2012, 06:08:33 PM ---Notice how all of this is ridiculous now? Everything was set. That was the last stipulation. Floyd agreed to penalties, coming in first, ring size, glove size. And they rejected 14 day proposal. Since then Floyd has taken a strict position.
--- End quote ---
But the things that Floyd agreed to weren't really things that inconvenienced him. The "penalty" is exaggerated -- it existed anyway, they just made the penalty for coming in heavier a lot more significant ($10 million per pound) due to Floyd's fight prior to that ignoring the catchweight (144 against Marquez), but the fight was at the full limit of 147, which Floyd has NEVER had a problem with making. So it wasn't inconveniencing him, they just kept the same limits but had a really high penalty if he came in heavier than 147 which would've been very unlikely for Floyd. If the penalty were $10 instead of $10 million, it's no more physically demanding of him than in any of his other fights at 147. He'd just lose more money... if he broke the rule and came in overweight. Him coming in first isn't a big deal, and it kind of makes sense since Manny was a belt holder at 147. I don't remember there being anything about the ring size, but the glove size is always a detail that you have to figure out.
Good discussion though -- we obviously have some disagreements but I can at least appreciate how it's going down. But again, I agree with you 100% that Manny should've just taken the blood tests to begin with.
--- End quote ---
Bob Arum says he wants blood testing for the upcoming Pacquiao Marquez V fight (if it's made). I don't know how Pacquiao's team feels, but his promoter definitely wants it. And it seems that Bob Arum calls the shots for everyone at Top Rank.
I think it's better to put pressure on the athletic commisions by implementing blood testing on the individual first. If Floyd would have gone to the commission first, Arum would have wanted the fight in Dallas. Dubai was also in the air for both fighters. You had to go through the fighters first I think.
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