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Any Fight Fans?
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---I do agree on Manny. Any logical person knows that he beat Bradley. I don't even look at that as a loss. And, even up until the KO he suffered vs. Marquez, Manny was up in that fight. I feel it was a combination of many being overly aggressive, Marquez being hurt (which is when a fighter is most dangerous) and Angel Hernandez...
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THANK YOU. There's no denying that Manny got knocked the fuck out, but people keep fronting like Manny was getting killed the whole time (as people compare it to Manny KO'ing Hatton since they both got put to bed, except there wasn't a moment in that fight where Manny wasn't dominating him) and then saying that he's done because of the dramatic ending. Even though 2012 had Manny losing both of his fights, he was actually fighting a lot better in those fights than he was in his two fights in 2011 against Mosley and Marquez. It's Manny's own fault that he got so aggressive that he made himself vulnerable, but a fifth fight should really happen. With blood testing, of course.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---Floyd would give Khan the fight before Manny only because he knows he can take a much larger chunk of the purse and there's nothing Khan's camp can do or say about it. It's not about the Win/Loss record. For Floyd it's about winning everything. Name being first on the bill. Coming out second. Getting the majority (no matter how small) of the purse. Dictating terms. That's when the fight starts for Floyd. Months before the actual fight. Manny's camp doesn't allow that and Floyd knows it.
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Yeah, but he'd definitely take Khan before Manny because he knows he can beat Khan... demands and money aside. And Khan's camp is more likely to bend over backwards just to get the fight done since they really don't have a lot of bargaining power.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---I like that idea of seeing Khan beat Alexander and then taking on the winner of Garcia/Matthyse. Then that winner fights Floyd. Makes sense. But, it leaves Floyd without an opponent May of Next year.
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True... but he doesn't have to fight on May, especially since the Mayweather-Guerrero fight on Cinco de Mayo weekend had terrible numbers (relative to what Mayweather normally does). He can still fight in June or July then squeeze in a fight in some time during December. It's not the ideal calendar, but it will work, and fans will buy it if the main fight is legit. He's had enough breaks between fights, he can go twice in a year with just a five-month gap between fights. Or at least he should, for the kind of money Showtime is paying him.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---As for Ortiz, I think he was thrown in by De La Hoya. Oscar is DYING to find that next Mexican American star and it's not working. First it was Ortiz. Then it kinda looked like Guerrero. Most recently, it was Abner Mares. It's just gonna happen. I lost ALL respect for Ortiz after his "I don't deserve this" speech. Berto is more Balrog than Bison nowadays. I don't know why GBP used him as a stepping stone towards Mayweather. Stylistically, he's nothing like your typical Black American fighter. So he gets into slug fests and loses and all of a sudden those guys are ready for Floyd? Please. Beat a guy like Broner. Move up beat a guy like Bradley. Or fight a guy like Ward and move way down. But, to be ready for Floyd, you have to have experience fighting fighters with strong Defense, not brawlers.
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I don't think that GB used Berto as a stepping stone toward Mayweather on purpose, even though that would be the result as Ortiz won. Personally I thought Berto was going to win (and I believe Team Mayweather did as well). But I agree about needing experience with defensive fighters to be ready for Floyd, since he's not the one to trade shots and see who punks out first. That being said, while I'm sure that deep down, Floyd is thinking about setting up a fight with Manny as one of his last fights obligated to Showtime (the money is there, and Manny having lost twice probably boosts his confidence, compared to 2009-2010 when he was just beating up bigger guys), but Manny needs to get a fifth fight against Marquez, clearly win it and either build up his own defense or render Marquez's defense useless somehow... which at this point Floyd is the only one to really have done it, but it was because they're both defensive fighters, so there wasn't much for either of them to counter.
whoisthis:
--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on September 03, 2013, 07:40:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---I do agree on Manny. Any logical person knows that he beat Bradley. I don't even look at that as a loss. And, even up until the KO he suffered vs. Marquez, Manny was up in that fight. I feel it was a combination of many being overly aggressive, Marquez being hurt (which is when a fighter is most dangerous) and Angel Hernandez...
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THANK YOU. There's no denying that Manny got knocked the fuck out, but people keep fronting like Manny was getting killed the whole time (as people compare it to Manny KO'ing Hatton since they both got put to bed, except there wasn't a moment in that fight where Manny wasn't dominating him) and then saying that he's done because of the dramatic ending. Even though 2012 had Manny losing both of his fights, he was actually fighting a lot better in those fights than he was in his two fights in 2011 against Mosley and Marquez. It's Manny's own fault that he got so aggressive that he made himself vulnerable, but a fifth fight should really happen. With blood testing, of course.
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Definitely. I didn't see Marquez putting up a great fight. I saw him getting worked by Manny. What I did see was Marquez putting on a ton of muscle at an age where putting on muscle is extremely difficult without help of some outside agent. I'd like to see a 5th fight only because Manny obliged Marquez after he cried time and time again for a rematch.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---Floyd would give Khan the fight before Manny only because he knows he can take a much larger chunk of the purse and there's nothing Khan's camp can do or say about it. It's not about the Win/Loss record. For Floyd it's about winning everything. Name being first on the bill. Coming out second. Getting the majority (no matter how small) of the purse. Dictating terms. That's when the fight starts for Floyd. Months before the actual fight. Manny's camp doesn't allow that and Floyd knows it.
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Yeah, but he'd definitely take Khan before Manny because he knows he can beat Khan... demands and money aside. And Khan's camp is more likely to bend over backwards just to get the fight done since they really don't have a lot of bargaining power.[/quote]
No doubt. Khan is the safer bet. His style fits Floyd much better. And, yes, you're right, Khan's camp will take some BS 70/30 deal just to get the fight.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---I like that idea of seeing Khan beat Alexander and then taking on the winner of Garcia/Matthyse. Then that winner fights Floyd. Makes sense. But, it leaves Floyd without an opponent May of Next year.
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True... but he doesn't have to fight on May, especially since the Mayweather-Guerrero fight on Cinco de Mayo weekend had terrible numbers (relative to what Mayweather normally does). He can still fight in June or July then squeeze in a fight in some time during December. It's not the ideal calendar, but it will work, and fans will buy it if the main fight is legit. He's had enough breaks between fights, he can go twice in a year with just a five-month gap between fights. Or at least he should, for the kind of money Showtime is paying him.[/quote]
It's possible that Floyd waits until June, but that doesn't give much shot for a fight between, let's say the winner of Mathysse/Garcia to fight the winner of Maidana/Broner or the winner of Khan/Alexander. Floyd probably fights the winner of any of those 3 fights. Showtime will not say anything to Floyd. He's the reason they're going to make money right now. He and Al Haymon are the reason Showtime has any real power right now.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 03, 2013, 06:57:45 PM ---As for Ortiz, I think he was thrown in by De La Hoya. Oscar is DYING to find that next Mexican American star and it's not working. First it was Ortiz. Then it kinda looked like Guerrero. Most recently, it was Abner Mares. It's just gonna happen. I lost ALL respect for Ortiz after his "I don't deserve this" speech. Berto is more Balrog than Bison nowadays. I don't know why GBP used him as a stepping stone towards Mayweather. Stylistically, he's nothing like your typical Black American fighter. So he gets into slug fests and loses and all of a sudden those guys are ready for Floyd? Please. Beat a guy like Broner. Move up beat a guy like Bradley. Or fight a guy like Ward and move way down. But, to be ready for Floyd, you have to have experience fighting fighters with strong Defense, not brawlers.
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I don't think that GB used Berto as a stepping stone toward Mayweather on purpose, even though that would be the result as Ortiz won. Personally I thought Berto was going to win (and I believe Team Mayweather did as well). But I agree about needing experience with defensive fighters to be ready for Floyd, since he's not the one to trade shots and see who punks out first. That being said, while I'm sure that deep down, Floyd is thinking about setting up a fight with Manny as one of his last fights obligated to Showtime (the money is there, and Manny having lost twice probably boosts his confidence, compared to 2009-2010 when he was just beating up bigger guys), but Manny needs to get a fifth fight against Marquez, clearly win it and either build up his own defense or render Marquez's defense useless somehow... which at this point Floyd is the only one to really have done it, but it was because they're both defensive fighters, so there wasn't much for either of them to counter.
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I think everyone thought Berto would win both the Ortiz and Guerrero fights. But, he just didn't have the style needed to win those fights. I agree about Manny. He needs to beat Rios decisively. Then take a Marquez fight regardless if he beats Bradley or not and shut him out. Floyd would really have no choice. The fight could happen next year if it all worked out.
I agree, too, that Manny needs to have a game plan for Counter Punchers. Floyd being the best Counter Puncher really is going to be tough for Manny. Marquez is a great Counter Puncher as well, that's why he's been able to hang with Manny. When Marquez fought Floyd, someone had to be the aggressor. Floyd baited Marquez into it and that's why Marquez looked so bad (and then called in Angel).
Good shit bro.
TraceOneInfinite:
I'm a huge Tyson fan. Watched nearly all his fights, documentary's, and even read books on him and the key figures in his life.. like Teddy Atlas, Don King, etc.
...same with Ali.
I was also a fan of a white boxer who was tearin shit up in the late 80's. Rocky Balboa.
DeeezNuuuts83:
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 04, 2013, 07:08:22 AM ---Definitely. I didn't see Marquez putting up a great fight. I saw him getting worked by Manny. What I did see was Marquez putting on a ton of muscle at an age where putting on muscle is extremely difficult without help of some outside agent. I'd like to see a 5th fight only because Manny obliged Marquez after he cried time and time again for a rematch.
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I know I said it before, but THANK YOU AGAIN. And it's not even because I'm a Manny fan either. I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't worried when Manny first got knocked down (which was a weird one, since Marquez clocked him on the side of the head), but after that, he really bounced back. I think in his head, he was trying to close that fateful round strong, as in his previous fight with Bradley, he was clearly winning, but he wasn't going in for the kill in any of the rounds. And yes, it's odd how Marquez (at 38 or 39 by the time that fight went down) was as huge as he's ever been in his entire career. That's not to say that every boxer at that age will look like Larry Holmes, but Marquez appeared to be at his physical peak, and had never, ever looked like that before.
Aside from Marquez being suspicious of possibly being on something (unless there is some other valid explanation, especially with Angel Heredia in his corner), I've always given credit to Marquez for killing it with such a brutal knockout. But I agree, he really should just sign on the dotted line for a fifth fight and make the biggest amount he's ever made in his career. Top Rank had already offered him a $12 million guarantee, which will likely inflate to something larger if he beats Bradley and Manny beats Rios. He owes it to Manny... regardless of who you felt won in each of the first three fights, the reality is that Marquez failed each time to officially defeat Manny, yet Manny continued to give him more and more shots. While that kind of a KO would be a great note to end his own career on, it isn't... he took on Bradley for some bragging rights to be the Mexican fighter who has X amount of titles in Y amount of weight classes.
The reality is that Manny is OFFICIALLY up on the scorecards, 2-1-1, while Marquez is down 1-2-1, even Marquez sole win was clear and the most significant. But Marquez really doesn't have much to lose. If he wins, then the score is tied, 2-2-1, except he'd have at least that KO victory (assuming he doesn't KO Manny again, though if he did, it would be an even greater close to his career). But if he loses, the only way he'd not be looked at as the better fighter is if Manny wins by KO/TKO. If Manny wins on the cards (whether UD, MD or SD), Manny gets to avenge his loss, but Marquez will go down as the only one to have knocked out the other guy... which alone is a big statement, even if you lose the last fight. And some people will hold that against Manny, unless it's just a one-sided beatdown like Pacquiao-Margarito. So it would take that drastic of a UD or just a KO for Manny to really take the fight and officially be the "better" fighter between the two of them.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 04, 2013, 07:08:22 AM ---No doubt. Khan is the safer bet. His style fits Floyd much better. And, yes, you're right, Khan's camp will take some BS 70/30 deal just to get the fight.
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Khan would probably take less than that. I wouldn't say that 70/30 with Floyd is BS for the vast majority of active fighters. Cotto getting the lower portion of 65/35 was about right, and he's much bigger of a star than Khan. I'd say that Khan MIGHT deserve the smaller cut of 75/25 with someone like Floyd, though I might give him 65/35 against someone like Manny. But remember, Sergio Martinez had even offered Floyd 90/10, and he's a much better fighter than Khan and would put up better PPV numbers.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 04, 2013, 07:08:22 AM ---It's possible that Floyd waits until June, but that doesn't give much shot for a fight between, let's say the winner of Mathysse/Garcia to fight the winner of Maidana/Broner or the winner of Khan/Alexander. Floyd probably fights the winner of any of those 3 fights. Showtime will not say anything to Floyd. He's the reason they're going to make money right now. He and Al Haymon are the reason Showtime has any real power right now.
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NOW, yes, but Top Rank gave them some clout that they hadn't had in YEARS when the signed a short-term deal with them in 2011, which proved to be successful. It got Pacquiao-Mosley 1.3 million PPV buys, which was good, considering Mosley had already been beaten by Floyd the year before (which you'd think would reduce his marketability, yet it did almost as many buys as Mayweather-Mosley). Their 360 program (their counterpart to HBO's 24/7) helped promote it, and Showtime's ties to CBS helped too... and they showed they could also be a boxing giant as well. (And then of course some other Top Rank fights were on Showtime as well, like Cotto-Mayorga.) It was firmly in HBO territory in terms of success to the point where HBO fired one of their higher-ranking execs who they blamed for losing that business.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 04, 2013, 07:08:22 AM ---I agree, too, that Manny needs to have a game plan for Counter Punchers. Floyd being the best Counter Puncher really is going to be tough for Manny. Marquez is a great Counter Puncher as well, that's why he's been able to hang with Manny. When Marquez fought Floyd, someone had to be the aggressor. Floyd baited Marquez into it and that's why Marquez looked so bad (and then called in Angel).
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Yeah, basically. Freddie Roach was right when he said Mayweather-Marquez was going to be a snoozefest, since it was a counterpuncher against a counterpuncher. We were lucky to see Marquez got knocked down once, though Floyd easily could've finished him, but he didn't. Other than that (which looked more like Marquez losing his balance anyway), there were zero fireworks. But while Marquez is still a defensive fighter, he at least engages.
--- Quote from: whoisthis on September 04, 2013, 07:08:22 AM ---Good shit bro.
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For sure. Good to see another articulate boxing fan who has preferences but not biases.
whoisthis:
--- Quote from: DeeezNuuuts83 on September 04, 2013, 10:00:35 AM ---
I know I said it before, but THANK YOU AGAIN. And it's not even because I'm a Manny fan either. I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't worried when Manny first got knocked down (which was a weird one, since Marquez clocked him on the side of the head), but after that, he really bounced back. I think in his head, he was trying to close that fateful round strong, as in his previous fight with Bradley, he was clearly winning, but he wasn't going in for the kill in any of the rounds. And yes, it's odd how Marquez (at 38 or 39 by the time that fight went down) was as huge as he's ever been in his entire career. That's not to say that every boxer at that age will look like Larry Holmes, but Marquez appeared to be at his physical peak, and had never, ever looked like that before.
Aside from Marquez being suspicious of possibly being on something (unless there is some other valid explanation, especially with Angel Heredia in his corner), I've always given credit to Marquez for killing it with such a brutal knockout. But I agree, he really should just sign on the dotted line for a fifth fight and make the biggest amount he's ever made in his career. Top Rank had already offered him a $12 million guarantee, which will likely inflate to something larger if he beats Bradley and Manny beats Rios. He owes it to Manny... regardless of who you felt won in each of the first three fights, the reality is that Marquez failed each time to officially defeat Manny, yet Manny continued to give him more and more shots. While that kind of a KO would be a great note to end his own career on, it isn't... he took on Bradley for some bragging rights to be the Mexican fighter who has X amount of titles in Y amount of weight classes.
The reality is that Manny is OFFICIALLY up on the scorecards, 2-1-1, while Marquez is down 1-2-1, even Marquez sole win was clear and the most significant. But Marquez really doesn't have much to lose. If he wins, then the score is tied, 2-2-1, except he'd have at least that KO victory (assuming he doesn't KO Manny again, though if he did, it would be an even greater close to his career). But if he loses, the only way he'd not be looked at as the better fighter is if Manny wins by KO/TKO. If Manny wins on the cards (whether UD, MD or SD), Manny gets to avenge his loss, but Marquez will go down as the only one to have knocked out the other guy... which alone is a big statement, even if you lose the last fight. And some people will hold that against Manny, unless it's just a one-sided beatdown like Pacquiao-Margarito. So it would take that drastic of a UD or just a KO for Manny to really take the fight and officially be the "better" fighter between the two of them.
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Spot on. I'm married to a Mexican Girl... All I can say is I've had a TON of arguments with her brothers. Cousins. Uncles.. You name it. The night and the few weeks after Marquez KO'd Manny, Marquez was tied with Vicente Fernandez and 2nd only to Jesus Christ in terms of popularity in Mexico. He literally became a God. If there were Elections that week, Marquez would've been written in as President. That segment of fan refuses to see the fight in anyway other than an annihilation. But, reality is that Manny was up. Manny really should've walked away up 2-0-1 and never looked back. But, being a true Champion he took a lose, lose fight. He beats Marquez, "oh well! Marquez was over anyway." He loses, "ah... you see he was never better than Marquez and he's not ready for Floyd." What can you do. A 5th fight HAS to happen. As for Angel... Well, let's just say if Victor Conte is calling you dirty, you're dirty. Filthy even.
If they fight 1 more time, I don't see Manny being as reckless. I see him developing a new game plan. He has to. Because, like you said, Marquez' defense and counter punching are top notch.
--- Quote ---Khan would probably take less than that. I wouldn't say that 70/30 with Floyd is BS for the vast majority of active fighters. Cotto getting the lower portion of 65/35 was about right, and he's much bigger of a star than Khan. I'd say that Khan MIGHT deserve the smaller cut of 75/25 with someone like Floyd, though I might give him 65/35 against someone like Manny. But remember, Sergio Martinez had even offered Floyd 90/10, and he's a much better fighter than Khan and would put up better PPV numbers.
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No doubt Khan takes it. It'll be the biggest pay day ever. I call it BS because it's Floyd's first "win" in the fight. Everything Floyd does is calculated. He does it for a reason. Mainly to get under the other persons skin, so that they can come into the fight angry and make mistakes.
I was dying to see Martinez fight Floyd or Manny. But, their camps dodged that bullet. Martinez has not looked good in his last few fights and his camp is trying to get him to dodge GGG. GGG has said he's willing to fight anyone at 154 to 160 or so. That guy and Leo Santa Cruz are my 2 favorite up and comers.
--- Quote ---NOW, yes, but Top Rank gave them some clout that they hadn't had in YEARS when the signed a short-term deal with them in 2011, which proved to be successful. It got Pacquiao-Mosley 1.3 million PPV buys, which was good, considering Mosley had already been beaten by Floyd the year before (which you'd think would reduce his marketability, yet it did almost as many buys as Mayweather-Mosley). Their 360 program (their counterpart to HBO's 24/7) helped promote it, and Showtime's ties to CBS helped too... and they showed they could also be a boxing giant as well. (And then of course some other Top Rank fights were on Showtime as well, like Cotto-Mayorga.) It was firmly in HBO territory in terms of success to the point where HBO fired one of their higher-ranking execs who they blamed for losing that business.
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Right now, Showtime pays way more to show each fight than HBO did. That's part of the reason why Showtime is making as much money as they should be. Showtime has always been in the picture, but HBO has always just been smarter about their business. But, Showtime showed their potential for risk by partnering up with Golden Boy and making HBO side exclusively with Top Rank. We'll see how it plays out.
--- Quote ---Yeah, basically. Freddie Roach was right when he said Mayweather-Marquez was going to be a snoozefest, since it was a counterpuncher against a counterpuncher. We were lucky to see Marquez got knocked down once, though Floyd easily could've finished him, but he didn't. Other than that (which looked more like Marquez losing his balance anyway), there were zero fireworks. But while Marquez is still a defensive fighter, he at least engages.
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They always say Styles Make Fights... It's always true.
--- Quote ---For sure. Good to see another articulate boxing fan who has preferences but not biases.
--- End quote ---
No doubt. You know you're game.
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